"Legs-a-spread" seoi nage

[blackmonk]

I have been watching a lot of central Asian and Caucasian sambo and judo players work seoi nage, and many of them adopt this style of seoi nage, as shown by Iliadis in the video. It isn't that they can't throw a more traditionally-oriented one, but that they often hit this variation in competition and randori.

My first thought is that this would require some physical attributes that not everyone has, like a greater range of mobility and flexibility. My second thought is that it may be more dependent on anatomical variables, like the relative heights of uke vs tori.

Thoughts?

[JudOWNED]

Interesting. I always assumed throw variations like that were due to the vagaries of shiai/randori and not really intentional, per se. For example, I like to work tai otoshi. Sometimes I will switch to it after attempting another throw like Seioi nage and end up with something like in this video. But it's really just a sloppy transition to tai otoshi not an intentional variation of the throw that I've been working on.

Could see how, if you are flexible, it might actually be easier. Sometimes for me getting low by bending at the knees is tougher than doing the splits (years of TKD!). That's why I tend to favor Tai Otoshi anyway. Easier to get low for me.

Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[blackmonk]

Interesting. I always assumed throw variations like that were due to the vagaries of shiai/randori and not really intentional, per se. For example, I like to work tai otoshi. Sometimes I will switch to it after attempting another throw like Seioi nage and end up with something like in this video. But it's really just a sloppy transition to tai otoshi not an intentional variation of the throw that I've been working on.

Could see how, if you are flexible, it might actually be easier. Sometimes for me getting low by bending at the knees is tougher than doing the splits (years of TKD!). That's why I tend to favor Tai Otoshi anyway. Easier to get low for me.

Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Afghani kurash and Georgian chidaoba use this variation of seoi nage a lot. I think, perhaps, the advantage would be a simplicity of movement. Learning to turn into a seoi nage position while squatting is a fairly complex movement, while just turning into a straddle is not. Also, it seems that there is much less opportunity for uke to "float" the throw.

[Omega Supreme]

I have a problem calling that seo nage without a lift instead of a drop. It's a debate I've been having for year. In the end cool throw though.

[blackmonk]

I have a problem calling that seo nage without a lift instead of a drop. It's a debate I've been having for year. In the end cool throw though.

Not sure I follow... Explainz?

[Omega Supreme]

This:

http://judoinfo.com/images/animation...seoiotoshi.htm

[BKR]

I have a problem calling that seo nage without a lift instead of a drop. It's a debate I've been having for year. In the end cool throw though.

He straightened his legs which got a little lift in the end, enough for it to be Seoi Nage vs Seoi Otoshi IMO.

[Omega Supreme]

He straightened his legs which got a little lift in the end, enough for it to be Seoi Nage vs Seoi Otoshi IMO.

Oh yeah, I completely understand. My personal taste though I don't like labeling that a Seo Nage.

[BKR]

I have been watching a lot of central Asian and Caucasian sambo and judo players work seoi nage, and many of them adopt this style of seoi nage, as shown by Iliadis in the video. It isn't that they can't throw a more traditionally-oriented one, but that they often hit this variation in competition and randori.

My first thought is that this would require some physical attributes that not everyone has, like a greater range of mobility and flexibility. My second thought is that it may be more dependent on anatomical variables, like the relative heights of uke vs tori.

Thoughts?

Well, I'd call it "I'm strong as hell, will lock you up and rip you over whether you like it or not". And Iliadis is strong as hell, and thus, it was good.

Note that I'm not saying that Iliadis isn't any good at Judo, to the contrary, but he is strong as fuck, even for the level at which he competes.

I see a couple of things happening in the video you posted.
1.) See above
2.) It's a Seoi Nage variation, as Iliadis does pop up with his leg to finish the throw.
3.) Iliadis used the fact that it is much more difficult for a human body to resist sideways forces (than forward/backward/pull/push) direction.

You are going to see more and more of the attacks that take uke straight to the side as time goes forwards. I've been incorporating them in my classes. My inspiration was a judo clinic last year in Canada, where "sideways" versions of Seoi Nage/Seoi Otoshi (brutal), Osoto Gari, Tai Otoshi, Ouchi Gari were demonstrated as examples.

And in fact, I've been seeing more and more of the "throw them sideways" stuff already.
4.) Legs apart/spread seoi nage has been around a long time (I know you already know that). I would say it IS easier to do because of the stability of tori having his legs apart.

On the other hand, it can be easier for uke to block (not dodge) because of the wider stance. Unless, you catch uke sideways, as Iliadis does, and mechanically hook uke up strongly, as Iliadis does in the video.

I started out doing a low, legs apart Seoi Nage/Otoshi variation (I really wanted to do Tai Otoshi, but, alas, the talent wasn't there). As I was short, had strong legs, and was very quick, it worked well for me, until I got up against guys good enough to know how to block correctly. So I was told by my coach to to Tai Otoshi or normal stance Seoi Nage.

Another judoka who is well known for a a "legs apart" Seoi Nage/Otoshi is Angelo Parisi. Go to 1:38, 1:45, 4:48 for examples.

Not too many red/white belts you see kicking ass like he could...

[BKR]

Oh yeah, I completely understand. My personal taste though I don't like labeling that a Seo Nage.

Yeah, variations can be like that. It was for sure not a "technically correct" Ippon Seoi Nage, and the direction entry doesn't have anything to do with it (sideways). I'd correct my students on a couple of points if I saw them do it that way in class.

Another concept that is coming into play is combining "lever" type throws with "force couple" type throws. Seoi Nage is a lever type throw. Osoto Gari, for example, is a force couple type of throw. Iliadis sort of does that by blocking with his leg, although in the end the fulcrum is his upper back/shoulder (thus it's still Seoi Nage).

Another idea is to change the level of the fulcrum. So for example, start low (step across and block with leg), then raise the level of the fulcrum to hip or upper back. Or do the opposite. All in response to uke reaction(s).

The higher the fulcrum, the higher amount of energy needed to do the throw. But the more control of uke you have. So for example, you do a wide leg initial attack (slows uke down and pins him in place for a moment (maybe throw him there), consolidate control to the higher fulcrum (hip or upper back), and apply force appropriately .

That is more or less what Iliadis did.

You see that more clearly in the video of Parisi. Who BTW has some damned fine judo, especially for a heavyweight (hell, for anybody). Love to see him vs. Riner, with Parisi in his prime. Would have been epic.

[blackmonk]

I drilled seoi nage like this for 20 or so reps just to feel it out yesterday, and it felt so weird.

It really does require some pretty extreme flexibility, also, along with strength.

[BKR]

I drilled seoi nage like this for 20 or so reps just to feel it out yesterday, and it felt so weird.

It really does require some pretty extreme flexibility, also, along with strength.

We drilled it last night too. My female teenage judoka didn't seem to have any problems with doing it, however, it's a bit of a scarey fall, and not the easiest way in the world to do ISN. The preferred Tai Otoshi or Tsurikomi Goshi, and in one case, Osoto Gari/Harai Goshi.

I did a few reps myself. I'd say it feels a bit awkward at first versus a "normal" ISN (to uke front quadrant. It's a bit more difficult as well, because you have to get ahead of uke a bit. Try Tai Otoshi, that was awkward as hell for me, LOL.

I think that Iliadis made use of what he had against very strong resistance, so his throw isn't ideal (as if they ever are). How he ended up finishing for sure required a lot of strength and flexibility.

YOu can do it with an entry that isn't straight legged. The main thing is you want to get your back perpendicular to whichever of uke side you are going too.

Movement helps too, move to uke right and throw right or vice versa.

[Omega Supreme]

We got a Judo class tonight. I think I'm going to drill this just to see how everybody takes to it.

[blackmonk]

I went through a period of a few months where I would "shear" uke's movement into a perpendicular position like you see in the video (my back on their side), and it definitely has its advantages. It is much, much more difficult to defend against the throw, and the entry into the throw is shorter, since it requires less rotation. That was with seoi nage, specifically.

I essentially do the same thing with uki goshi and o goshi now, with quite a few variations that depend on uke's reaction. Goshi waza has really become my specialty, along with te guruma.

[BKR]

We got a Judo class tonight. I think I'm going to drill this just to see how everybody takes to it.

The balance is a bit awkward at first, and uke will need to make sure to rotate towards tori (close the gate) to make the fall easier. I had them do a couple of uchikomi before they started throwing.

Otherwise, normal ISN stuff applies.