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    Dealing with Unorthodox Gripping

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    This has been placed in the advanced grappling forum for a reason.





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    #2
    LOL, whoosh!

    Nice work, and shows why worrying about his kind of stuff unless you are doing Judo 5+ days a week and don't already have very strong basics is a confusing waste of time.

    Just drilling the simplest pattern to get it down well will take weeks of dedicated work. All together, it's a long term project.

    Ben

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by BKR View Post
      LOL, whoosh!

      Nice work, and shows why worrying about his kind of stuff unless you are doing Judo 5+ days a week and don't already have very strong basics is a confusing waste of time.

      Just drilling the simplest pattern to get it down well will take weeks of dedicated work. All together, it's a long term project.

      Ben
      When I was gathering the visual aids/ researching for this I came across a comment by Pedro on his gripping dvd, where he says 'even my elite guys don't really get this stuff'.

      It made me starting really thinking about my gripping and the gripping of my guys/gals. Normally I just do the standard lapel feed to get the collar and then grip the sleeve and let them have equal opportunity.

      After I started paying attention I noticed that despite loads of lessons on gripping 99% didn't have a clue and so as soon as I started stepping things up; doing the lapel shrug, posting the tsurite shoulder, blocking my lapel with my hand etc... they were all at sea.

      I had a long phone chat with my coach about it earlier and so next academic year he's going to come down hard on the gripping for the competitively minded guys.

      Comment


        #4
        Learn unorthadox grips? I thought I could just lobby the federations to have them banned

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by judoka_uk View Post
          When I was gathering the visual aids/ researching for this I came across a comment by Pedro on his gripping dvd, where he says 'even my elite guys don't really get this stuff'.

          It made me starting really thinking about my gripping and the gripping of my guys/gals. Normally I just do the standard lapel feed to get the collar and then grip the sleeve and let them have equal opportunity.

          After I started paying attention I noticed that despite loads of lessons on gripping 99% didn't have a clue and so as soon as I started stepping things up; doing the lapel shrug, posting the tsurite shoulder, blocking my lapel with my hand etc... they were all at sea.

          I had a long phone chat with my coach about it earlier and so next academic year he's going to come down hard on the gripping for the competitively minded guys.
          There are different stages to learning gripping just like anything else in Judo. It's easy to overload people who are just trying to learn how to move reasonably well and do simple throws, let alone add more complex gripping sequences to the mix. So it's no wonder they were at a loss when you "stepped it up". They don't have your experience or repetition with higher level judoka.

          I had the same experience with my students, and they are probably much longer term with me than your college kids. The ability to move and throw has to increase to be able to integrate the move/grip/move/cut/regrip and mix in attacks at the same time.

          Using ashi waza as part of a grip/attack sequence is a critical skill. But if you don't have the ashi waza down pretty well, then it won't work very well.

          Prepare to be frustrated.

          Also, cross gripping the lapel then trying to catch the sleeve is backwards for aiyotsu, but the right order for kenka yotsu. I started off my kids with the cross lapel to sleeve thing, but had to untrain them to catch sleeve first for ai yotsu. Of course, you can go for the near sleeve in kenka yotsu to catch the lapel and get inside grip as well.

          Ben

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by JohnnyCache View Post
            Learn unorthadox grips? I thought I could just lobby the federations to have them banned
            Right, I'm sure the IJF is all ears to escrimists and BJJist.

            Comment


              #7
              As usual great work judoka_UK....I will add this to my Judo files. I know that Judo has rules regarding grips. In BJJ tournaments this has not happened yet. For instance I like to grab the front of the belt to set up certain takedowns. I was told that in Judo this was not allowed for more than a few seconds. I was also told that you have to remain in an upward stance during competition and not in a low stance or bent at the waist. Not sure if this is true so can anyone enlighten me on this.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Team Python View Post
                As usual great work judoka_UK....I will add this to my Judo files. I know that Judo has rules regarding grips. In BJJ tournaments this has not happened yet. For instance I like to grab the front of the belt to set up certain takedowns. I was told that in Judo this was not allowed for more than a few seconds. I was also told that you have to remain in an upward stance during competition and not in a low stance or bent at the waist. Not sure if this is true so can anyone enlighten me on this.
                You can grab and hold the belt for 5 seconds then you have to make an attack or receive a minor penalty.

                Upright stance is traditional to judo.

                You can bend over or use a wrestlers stance, but you will have to make an attack from there in a few (5) seconds or receive a penalty. Bend over and stiff arm and it will be a penalty right away.

                If you plan to go to a Judo tournament, I suggest you go take some Judo lessons first and get familiar with the rules etc, especially ukemi (falling). Otherwise you will be in for a frustrating experience.

                Ben

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by BKR View Post
                  You can grab and hold the belt for 5 seconds then you have to make an attack or receive a minor penalty.

                  Upright stance is traditional to judo.

                  You can bend over or use a wrestlers stance, but you will have to make an attack from there in a few (5) seconds or receive a penalty. Bend over and stiff arm and it will be a penalty right away.

                  If you plan to go to a Judo tournament, I suggest you go take some Judo lessons first and get familiar with the rules etc, especially ukemi (falling). Otherwise you will be in for a frustrating experience.

                  Ben

                  I don't think I will ever compete in Judo tournament but I was doing private lessons with a Judoka to better my throws for a BJJ tournament. That's until the gas prices went up and ruined those trips.

                  I am currently working on having a Judo black belt teach several days a week at my academy so my students and I can be well rounded and do better in BJJ competition.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Great, in that case unorthodox grips are not a problem. Dealing with bent over posture and stiff arms might be though.

                    Ben

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by BKR View Post
                      There are different stages to learning gripping just like anything else in Judo. It's easy to overload people who are just trying to learn how to move reasonably well and do simple throws, let alone add more complex gripping sequences to the mix. So it's no wonder they were at a loss when you "stepped it up". They don't have your experience or repetition with higher level judoka.

                      I had the same experience with my students, and they are probably much longer term with me than your college kids. The ability to move and throw has to increase to be able to integrate the move/grip/move/cut/regrip and mix in attacks at the same time.

                      Using ashi waza as part of a grip/attack sequence is a critical skill. But if you don't have the ashi waza down pretty well, then it won't work very well.

                      Prepare to be frustrated.

                      Also, cross gripping the lapel then trying to catch the sleeve is backwards for aiyotsu, but the right order for kenka yotsu. I started off my kids with the cross lapel to sleeve thing, but had to untrain them to catch sleeve first for ai yotsu. Of course, you can go for the near sleeve in kenka yotsu to catch the lapel and get inside grip as well.

                      Ben
                      Yeh you're right I was having a think about this over the bank holiday weekend and yesterday when I went for beers with my coach we had another chat about this and basically he talked me round to what you were saying. The guys don't really have Judo down yet so gripping is really asking too much.

                      I'm slowly starting to sync in my ashiwaza with my gripping and am catching people with De ashi off the grip. Still very much a work in progress, though, and still a lot of people getting kicked when I grip them lol!

                      Well I used to try and get the sleeve, but against decent guys there's no way they will let you get there sleeve, you might just get a grip on the lapel, though, and try and work from there. So I got out of the habit of getting the sleeve first, should probably start working on it again against weaker opposition.

                      Originally posted by Team Python View Post
                      As usual great work judoka_UK....I will add this to my Judo files. I know that Judo has rules regarding grips. In BJJ tournaments this has not happened yet. For instance I like to grab the front of the belt to set up certain takedowns. I was told that in Judo this was not allowed for more than a few seconds. I was also told that you have to remain in an upward stance during competition and not in a low stance or bent at the waist. Not sure if this is true so can anyone enlighten me on this.
                      Cheers, Ben has answered your grip rules questions.

                      I would say though that these are advanced gripping situations. Even as a Judo dan grade these aren't things I've mastered. I'm just aware of some of the solutions.

                      Getting the basic gripping sequences, the basic grip breaks, basic movement patterns and combining movement with gripping and attacking.

                      Then you need to drill all these advanced sequences a lot and then practice applying them against skilled opposition in sparring. The same advice and structure you give your students to learn BJJ.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally Posted by BKR
                        There are different stages to learning gripping just like anything else in Judo. It's easy to overload people who are just trying to learn how to move reasonably well and do simple throws, let alone add more complex gripping sequences to the mix. So it's no wonder they were at a loss when you "stepped it up". They don't have your experience or repetition with higher level judoka.

                        I had the same experience with my students, and they are probably much longer term with me than your college kids. The ability to move and throw has to increase to be able to integrate the move/grip/move/cut/regrip and mix in attacks at the same time.

                        Using ashi waza as part of a grip/attack sequence is a critical skill. But if you don't have the ashi waza down pretty well, then it won't work very well.

                        Prepare to be frustrated.

                        Also, cross gripping the lapel then trying to catch the sleeve is backwards for aiyotsu, but the right order for kenka yotsu. I started off my kids with the cross lapel to sleeve thing, but had to untrain them to catch sleeve first for ai yotsu. Of course, you can go for the near sleeve in kenka yotsu to catch the lapel and get inside grip as well.

                        Originally posted by judoka_uk View Post
                        Yeh you're right I was having a think about this over the bank holiday weekend and yesterday when I went for beers with my coach we had another chat about this and basically he talked me round to what you were saying. The guys don't really have Judo down yet so gripping is really asking too much.
                        The basics of gripping, yes, basic sleeve control, probably. Just properly setting the hands under stress (randori or shiai) is difficult without a lot of practice. It takes a huge amount of mental and physical discipline to effectively apply gripping strategies seriously and effectively.

                        I understand what you are going through, I've been there as a coach as well. You know all this useful stuff, and want to help, but it just tends to overwhelm beginners/novices and up to intermediate level judoka, especially if other basics are not solid.

                        We (coaches) and they (students) have to have the patience to take things one or two steps at a time. That will mean they may lose some matches because a slightly more advanced person outgrips them. If the difference in skill level is higher, they will lose anyway more than likely, gripping won't make much if any difference.

                        I'm slowly starting to sync in my ashiwaza with my gripping and am catching people with De ashi off the grip. Still very much a work in progress, though, and still a lot of people getting kicked when I grip them lol!
                        That is what we've started to work on in the last 2 months. This after working on ashi barai for something like 2 years. I kept introducing it, but their coordination was not there. Now it's working better. Recently we've started working on Kosoto Gari and Gake variations, nidan or otherwise, which also work well with kumi kata sequences. You watch a lot of high level Judo video, kicking is the norm!

                        Well I used to try and get the sleeve, but against decent guys there's no way they will let you get there sleeve, you might just get a grip on the lapel, though, and try and work from there. So I got out of the habit of getting the sleeve first, should probably start working on it again against weaker opposition.
                        I understand that totally. I have a sequence to go through from simple to complex for getting (trying) to get the sleeve, common sequences that typically happen along the way, defending/countering common attacks, attacking off the grip, etc.

                        *Edit* BTW, what Pedro calls "post the shoulder" is very useful, obviously as part of the sequence. You can always go to double lapel from there as well.

                        Part of it I learned over the years, part from Kenichiro Agemizu when I was at ISU, then added to it from Pedro's DVD, which was a big help to integrate it together for me.

                        I don't claim to be an inventor of any of it by any means, neither am I expert at exectuting the stuff myself. I find it gets to be tiresome, in fact, but for serious competitors, gripping has to be addressed in detail as appropriate for level.

                        Ben
                        Last edited by BKR; 5/31/2011 1:47pm, . Reason: forgot something

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Grip fighting is the difference maker in tachiwaza. Developing and mastering a few grip sequences will make you better. Overloading people with crazy situations is not going to make them any better. Most people think that they are goinng to compete against a world champion and want to know every trick in the book. More importantly is to develop some techniques that are beneficial to you.

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