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    Judo Pins

    I have a serious issue with judo pins. to begin with, the commonly seen scarf hold (first pin most judoka are shown) can be escaped simply by switching the hips over and rolling them, or (if strong enough) simply rolling them straight over your body. Other pins seem to resemble a retarded version of side control/north south/mount down, and so can be bridge/rolled out of. This is sometimes made easier by the fact that the majority of judoka I train with don't change position very often to maintain the pin, and instead seem to stubbornly attempt to maintain their position. I'm not asking why people use pins, obviously it's to do with the ruleset. What I want to know is has anybody managed to use them effectively against a judoka with an effective ground game? Or is it just BJJ that is ruining my perspective? As I understant it BJJ originally came from Judo newaza so surely the judoka should understand changes in their balance and change position.

    #2
    Kesa-gatame most definitely does work if it's done properly. Are these black belts you're effortlessly escaping?

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      #3
      My BJJ mind fails to understand Judo pinning strategy - No BS MMA and Martial Arts

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        #4
        Originally posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
        Kesa-gatame most definitely does work if it's done properly. Are these black belts you're effortlessly escaping?
        lol apologies I did make it sound that way. It's never effortless but the technique in the escape is relatively simple, that's what I was trying to get at. We obviously dont have the best in the world here but The only thing the black belts (there's only three) can't do to me is pin (They throw me on my head alot). They can also sub me on occasion, but their first instinct is to pin.

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          #5
          Point taken, I searched judo pins and didn't find that thread

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            #6
            Yeah.. after reading that other thread Mod might as well delete this..

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              #7
              Simple solution go find Neil Adams and have him educate you on the subject.


              One other thing I would like to add. Just because you can handle local area Judoka does not mean ALL judoka are the same. Go to where the elite guys play Judo and you will see the difference.

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                #8
                Originally posted by MMAMickey View Post
                I have a serious issue with judo pins. to begin with, the commonly seen scarf hold (first pin most judoka are shown) can be escaped simply by switching the hips over and rolling them, or (if strong enough) simply rolling them straight over your body. Other pins seem to resemble a retarded version of side control/north south/mount down, and so can be bridge/rolled out of. This is sometimes made easier by the fact that the majority of judoka I train with don't change position very often to maintain the pin, and instead seem to stubbornly attempt to maintain their position. I'm not asking why people use pins, obviously it's to do with the ruleset. What I want to know is has anybody managed to use them effectively against a judoka with an effective ground game? Or is it just BJJ that is ruining my perspective? As I understant it BJJ originally came from Judo newaza so surely the judoka should understand changes in their balance and change position.
                Pins work.

                Kesa gatame: This one requires you to be driving into their ribs with your body, such that their head comes up just from the pressure. If you like, you can add to the head-lift by using the lapel behind their neck, or by grabbing your own thigh to provide a solid frame. In either case, it makes bridging very, very difficult. The true method to escape kesa gatame is to free your trapped arm's elbow. Once that is free, they have to transition fast or you're going to come out the back door, roll them, or even submit them.

                Observe how at :38 Kashiwazaki angles into their ribs, driving uke's head up:YouTube - Kashiwazaki Kesa gatame - Scarf Hold

                Yoko shiho gatame: yeah, while it technically works as demonstrated (especially when under a Judo ruleset when you can't frame against their face to help get the sankaku) realistically the Kashiwazaki method is far superior.

                YouTube - Kashiwazaki Yokoshio gatame - Side mount It's a simple matter to switch from the belt grip (which I don't like, really) to a more BJJ-esque head wrap.

                Kami Shiho gatame: This pin should be the hardest of all to escape. I'm not sure how you are doing it, but I can use it to hold down people literally over twice my weight and with much more skill than me, provided I get a chance to secure the position first. Yes, the double belt-grab version as used in demonstration isn't as useful as the kuzure version. This pin is still a monster to get out of when done right, regardless of your strength, if your partner has anything like equal or superior skill to you on the ground.

                Tate shiho gatame: Remember that this pin is maybe the most different from the equivalent position in BJJ or MMA. In BJJ or MMA, you want, or at least do not mind, your opponent turning to his belly. This is not the case in Judo. If he turns to all fours and manages to keep you from choking him for 5 seconds, there is every likelihood that you will be stood up in competition. You've given up a winning position for a chance at submissions; think of what BJJ would be like if you didn't get any points for back control. It would still be used, of course, but a lot of the time you'd see more transitions from it to mount. In Judo, back control is a transitory control, useful only for getting to tate shiho or a submission.

                As such, you will notice that there is always a large element of arm control in Judo tate shiho gatame. This helps prevent rolling to escape the osaekomi count, especially when you remember that you can't apply shoulder pressure to the face in Judo to solidify the position as you might in BJJ or MMA. It might be an arm wrap almost as if going for ude gatame (straight armlock; not the armbar but the one using your upper body to secure it), or it might be almost like an arm triangle, or something else. Regardless, you want to prevent uke from spinning to his belly, not encourage it as you might in BJJ.

                You might argue that this is not a good idea and is counterintuitive for MMA or "real fighting", but I've actually come to prefer mount to back control once I learned to securely hold it. Your opponent wears out and you get to comparatively rest, whereas in back control there is always more of a fight and a canny opponent will spend a lot of time with his weight on you to wear you out and help his escapes. Regardless, it gives you another option; of holding mount even if your opponent would rather have you on his back. If you don't like it, you can always let him roll and take the back.

                YouTube - Kashiwazakii Kami and Tate shio gatame (northsouth mount)

                You haven't mentioned kata gatame, which I am of mixed feelings about. I find it the easiest pin to escape, but done properly it's also a submission and a quick gateway to a variety of other submissions - cobra choke, armbar, sode guruma jime, ude garami. So I find myself using it offensively quite a lot but baiting it to escape from kesa gatame, oddly enough. Perhaps a more experienced Judoka could share their thoughts?

                Anyway, I hope this helped.

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                  #9
                  putting your weight on someone's ribs doesn't necessarily force someone's head to come up, if you walk your legs around the long way (towards their front as opposed to the aimless dog chasing tail scenario many employ) you change the position of your ribs making it more comfortable. from that point it is possible, although not by any means the easiest method, to roll them.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by MMAMickey View Post
                    putting your weight on someone's ribs doesn't necessarily force someone's head to come up, if you walk your legs around the long way (towards their front as opposed to the aimless dog chasing tail scenario many employ) you change the position of your ribs making it more comfortable. from that point it is possible, although not by any means the easiest method, to roll them.
                    Oh, wow, cool, I learned that too!

                    At judo class.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by MMAMickey View Post
                      putting your weight on someone's ribs doesn't necessarily force someone's head to come up, if you walk your legs around the long way (towards their front as opposed to the aimless dog chasing tail scenario many employ) you change the position of your ribs making it more comfortable. from that point it is possible, although not by any means the easiest method, to roll them.
                      While you can walk around the long way like that for a roll, the guy on top can easily walk with you.

                      You're the one with your ribs being crushed the whole time, so who do you think will be able to do this little game for longer?

                      There's a reason that the head-and-arm/kesa gatame/scarf hold is present as a powerful pin in every form of grappling and wrestling involving ground wrestling whatsoever. It's solid.

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                        #12
                        I wonder- do the pinners that you escape from, MMAMickey, keep their legs splayed, butt down, and hips right up against you in kesa gatame? I realize it may be hard to see what the person who's trying to mush you is doing, but perhaps you can watch their technique used on other people.

                        In short, I am focusing on the very basics of the pin, without which, escape is much easier. Legs together? Narrow base, easily tipped over. Butt up in the air? Oh, center of gravity is much too high. Hips away from you? Space to work in.

                        I'm just breaking down for you what was already said- good judoka will pin you effectively, and it can hurt when done correctly. Sloppy technique, though, is escapable. Which sounds like exactly what you've been doing. Keep doing that, but don't discount the technique on account of bad execution.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Blue Negation View Post
                          You haven't mentioned kata gatame, which I am of mixed feelings about. I find it the easiest pin to escape
                          Really? I've always found the complete opposite, that kata gatame is the easiest pin to hold, but the hardest to lock in.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by ViciousFlamingo View Post
                            Really? I've always found the complete opposite, that kata gatame is the easiest pin to hold, but the hardest to lock in.
                            I find it much, much easier to escape than a tight kesa gatame from the same level of player. I can't remember the last time I tapped to or was pinned in kata gatame, while I can't say the same about kesa or kami shiho.

                            I use it myself, but I usually either quickly get a tap from the arm triangle action or end up transitioning to a different submission; most often the cobra to kimura or armbar.

                            That's just me, though.

                            Before I took up Judo again, the arm triangle was one of my staples in BJJ. Maybe that's why.

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                              #15
                              The question is: are you escaping the pins in less than 25s?

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