Dealing with the crossface

[FictionPimp]

So we have a guy in our club who crossfaces a lot. Every time I roll with him, if he is on top he will basically just squeeze my face ineffectually with his hands, arms, chest, etc.

He keeps a lot of good top pressure, but even if I let him have the mount, he never tries to do anything but ezekiel choke and crossface. Both of which never ever work for him (at least against me). He is however a better wrestler then I am, and it is hard to get him on his back. This means I've been reduced to getting taken down, crossfaced for 2 or 3 minutes straight until I can get back to my guard and armbar/choke the shit out of him.

I've tried giving him advice, telling him to work on submissions, or to relax a little it's just training, or to use the crossface to turn the guy over and choke, but he's not hearing it.

I'm sick of bloody lips and pain in my mouth for days. I'm sick of being nice, I'm at the end of my rope and seriously giving him a long healing vacation with a opps armbar or heel hook. Any suggestions on how to train this guy out of just thinking hulk smash?

[MMAMickey]

1) don't roll with him

2) Get better at wrestling and own him

Pricks don't change, and a prick who is a better wrestler than you can be particularly frustrating. I find that mount is an easier position to escape than side control or half guard.. if all you're doing is rolling then bridge him off in to guard and then pass and do it back.. when his mouth hurts and he realises it doesnt do much else he might stop

[Kentucky Fried Chokin]

If it's legal: next time he hunchs over you to do his stupid crossfacing or whatever, reach up around his head so arm is around the back of his neck, and do a RNC grip around the front on his head, with one hand on his forhead. Squeeze the shit out of it. When he fights him, roll his ass over.

You can do it from under mount of side control. It's a real dick move, in fact, do it even if it's not legal.

[tetsuo]

No reason to hurt him. It is a combat sport. Ask for your instructor how to beat the crossface.

My personnal advice (I'm just a blue belt) : the crossface is an efficient choice for the top guy but it kinda weaken its base the same side the arm he is using to crossface. Basic move to counter the crossface is to bridge to this side.

From the mount it gives the classical bridge escape.

From the side control, to do this counter, bridge, using your arms to lean on his body: your near arm should lean on his leg and your far arm should push the outside of his head (to the direction you bride to, ie to his crossfacing arm).
The stronger he is crossfacing, the most efficient is the technic. If you do it properly, he should release the crossface and base with the arm. Biggest problem is while you bridge you cannot defend him going to mount as easily as in classic side control defense.

[MMAMickey]

If it's legal: next time he hunchs over you to do his stupid crossfacing or whatever, reach up around his head so arm is around the back of his neck, and do a RNC grip around the front on his head, with one hand on his forhead. Squeeze the shit out of it. When he fights him, roll his ass over.

You can do it from under mount of side control. It's a real dick move, in fact, do it even if it's not legal.

erm.. ouch

I will try this 2m

[FictionPimp]

If it's legal: next time he hunchs over you to do his stupid crossfacing or whatever, reach up around his head so arm is around the back of his neck, and do a RNC grip around the front on his head, with one hand on his forhead. Squeeze the shit out of it. When he fights him, roll his ass over.

You can do it from under mount of side control. It's a real dick move, in fact, do it even if it's not legal.

I'm going with this route. I'm a blue belt, but he's a way stronger wrestler then I am. I can easily get back to guard but while I'm working my escapes I'm just constantly getting my face smashed in and I'm getting sick of it. I spent a good 15 minutes one night just trying to reverse him but simply couldn't. I can submit him from guard all night long, I just can't get on top. The guy is bigger then I am, stronger then I am, and a better wrestler. I've tried every kind of escape and reversal I know of, and the pressure is just too tight and my back and shoulders are just stuck to the mat with this forearm grinding it's way back and forth across my nose, mouth, eyes, etc. I just wait it out until he really drives in and it gives me enough space to grab guard, walk my feet up and armbar him. I get to bleed into my mouth for a few days and he just gets more and more frustrated and crossfaces harder and harder.

This reverse RNC face smash thing should work because I find myself in half guard a lot and I can hold a half guard basically indefinitely if I decide not to try to escape or sweep. So I think I'll just smash his face, it was better then my friends suggestion of just "accidentally" going full force into a few armbars until he refuses to train with me.

I don't want to stop training with him because he is a strong wrestler and I need to go against strong wrestlers to learn how to deal with them. I'm not on my back much with other people because I usually am the guy throwing and playing on top. I could deal with it if he was sub hunting or transitioning, but I'm starting to get really pissed off. I'm not going to be the whining bitch who tells the coach not to pair me up with 'that guy'.

[JingMerchant!]

F.P, I have no suggestion, but I draw your attention to my sig... KFC is there for a reason...

I also want to know how this turns out for you!

[Mercury]

maybe i'm being a jackass but if you're going to complain about it, but instead of not rolling, you decide to use meathead moves as a counter to dick moves, you're as bad as him if not worse, because you know what you want to do is a meathead move and you are doing it only because it's a meathead move. you think you're not a bitch for saying you'll roll with the guy anyway and not tell on him, but you are wrong. you're supposed to be learning, obviously the guy is not learning and is not willing to listen to what you have to say so allow the instructor to correct him, that's what their job is for and why they are there. maybe you have a pecking order at your school but no one gives a shit about dumb stuff like mat revenge where i train if you've been here for at least 3 months. trying to get your immature little mat revenge is how bad shit happens in training, either people get pissed off at each other or someone gets injured.

[FictionPimp]

True, but he's not breaking the rules. He needs to understand it's a dick thing to do. Telling him "Hey, that's a dick thing to do" apparently doesn't cut it. So I'll show him then say "Hey, isn't that a dick thing to do?"

I decided if he wants to roll like it is a match, I'll deal with him like it is a match. That means doing everything short of cheating outright to 'win'. At least I'll get to practice my being an asshole.

Honestly, my face is still healing, so I don't give a shit. I told my instructor last class, he said toughen up. If he doesn't want to stop it, that means the only thing left to do is go from training to fighting. Just maybe it will wake the instructor up at least.

Seriously, I'm probably the nicest guy to work with. I like to go at a moderate pace, try new things, and let my partners work on new things. I have no problem starting in any position my partner wants if he wants to work something in particular. If guys are training for competition I have no problem going hard either. You know what I do if nothing is happening in a sparring session? I transition to another position and try to work there, even if that means I lose my superior position. Lately the attitude of some people has made me really just want to say fuck it and go 100% in every single sparring session. Guys like this seem to think it is about winning and losing. We can play it like it's about winning and losing.

Maybe I'm too prideful, but it seems nobody else in the gym has a problem with this happening to them. When I mention it I get "Yea, that's all he does to me too!". I'm too god damn old to waste my time with that shit. The next guy who crossfaces me better be a god damn better grappler (not that it wold take much) then I am. Because I'm going to return the favor two times over. If that makes me a dick or an asshole so be it. I'm fucking angry.

[marcusdbrutus]

There's a guy that used to crossface me in Judo. He also haaaates being held down, kinda claustrophobic. So every time he'd do it, I'd do my best to lock down Kami Shiho and drop my stomach/ribs right into his face, and hold it for 30 long seconds. No tapping out of pins allowed in my club :D

But yeah, he doesn't roll with me anymore. So kick your guy's ass, feel better about yourself and solve a problem in life. Violence works!

[Kintanon]

That recommended neck crank will work the first time, but rarely will work after one attempt. I have guys try to do it to me from bottom of half guard and shit constantly, it never works.

Since you are a blue belt, and I'm a lowly white belt I am loathe to give advice. HOWEVER I do deal with the crossface a lot and I use it when appropriate, and I know how to deal with it in several different ways, so here are a few.


To handle the crossface issues here though I defend the same way I would defend punches. Get your hands up to your face. My prefered method is called "The Forcefield" , you put your hand on your face/forehead with your elbow over the center of your chest. It also helps you defend armbars by stopping people from getting the leg over your face.
This will tie up one of your arms, but it wil stop the crossface. Use your other arm to escape mount. I use this method from every position against anyone who tries to crossface me. It has the disadvantage of making my arm vulnerable, but I generally don't mind since I KNOW they will take the arm and I'm generally ready for the armbar attempt.

If they are REALLY jamming down with a lot of top pressure and you just can't get your hand up to your face then first you must crossface them or (my preference) forearm across the trachea and push up to get enough room. There are quite a few little wrestling tricks for getting people to let up, including digging a knuckle into their throat or the side of their neck.

One way to get the counter crossface is to put both your hands over your head, grip with one palm over the back of the other hand and pull down, wedgeing your forearm in between your face and his face and then push up. Make sure to grind the outside of your forearm into the bridge of his nose for the best effect.

This got a little disjointed, but it should give you some ideas.

[Blue Negation]

How good are you at leglocks? I recommend the calf crush (switch grip from achilles lock, same basic position) and knee slicer or half crab as painful anti-dick moves if they're allowed in your sparring. Also, if you want to be a bit risky about it, give up your back and shinlock him (or go for it from other positions, but the ones I know require you to be on top).

I had this same problem. Judicious application of leglocks solved it. When he asked why I kept leglocking nonstop in every sparring round with him, I pointed at my bloody teeth, and mentioned that it kept his forearm away from my lips.

[FictionPimp]

Yea I can defend the crossface. It's more the problem of the fact it's constantly being done. I get out of it, land a sub, 10 seconds later I'm back on bottom with yet another forearm grinding the shit out of my nose and mouth.

So it's more of a "why the fuck can't you figure out this doesn't work?" thing.

[Kintanon]

Oh, in that case you need to stop getting mounted by this mouth breather. You should be learning to counter this particular crossface MUCH EARLIER in the process. Stop getting mounted, stop getting in disadvantageous positions against the guy. He sees the Cross Face as a reflexive action whenever he is on top, he just DOES it. He's not thinking about hurting you, or even subbing you necessarily. He's just conditioned to crossface from the top. Stop whining about how he's a better wrestler than you are and work your guard retention game like mad.

People should need Hannibal and a train of Elephants to pass your guard by god. No fucking mouth breathing wrestler should be making it through there.

[FictionPimp]

How good are you at leglocks? I recommend the calf crush (switch grip from achilles lock, same basic position) and knee slicer or half crab as painful anti-dick moves if they're allowed in your sparring. Also, if you want to be a bit risky about it, give up your back and shinlock him (or go for it from other positions, but the ones I know require you to be on top).

I had this same problem. Judicious application of leglocks solved it. When he asked why I kept leglocking nonstop in every sparring round with him, I pointed at my bloody teeth, and mentioned that it kept his forearm away from my lips.

Yea, actually that's a good idea. I really need to work on my leglocks anyway. I'm not that strong with them, but I'd like to practice rolling into kneebars and toe holds. I'll have to give up my back right away though, because even if I roll on my side and stick my arm straight up in the air, he won't give up the crossface.