Whats up Bullshido, was basically hoping to get some advice from any of you who train/ have experiance/knowledge of these to systems, in respect to what might be better for street application. I assume both would be effective at the proper time and as well due to their tranning methods, so any imput would be appreciated...thanx
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Both have alive training. Both use basically the same techniques with different emphasis.
In short: who cares? They're both effective on the street. Do whatever's fun for you. Why spend thousands of hours doing something that you may never have to (get to?) use if it's not fun? -
Originally posted by Samfoo
thanx, do you care to maybe go into a little bit of the different emphaasis they have, not overly familiar with what actually transpires in their trainning. thanx.Comment
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Judo: Huge emphasis on throws, trips, and takedowns. Some Judo schools have INSANELY limited ground work (As in, nearly 100% of their time is dedicated to standup). Judo competitions involve having 2 opponents start standing. One could win by a throw, pin, or submission. However, the submission aspect is pretty limited due to the fact that competitors are stood up if they are on the ground too long. Overall, an amazing martial art for standup grappling, and while it has SOME groundwork, it is not top class.
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: Heavy emphasis on technical ground work. Every BJJ school I've been to, seen, or heard about primarly works on the ground. Dominant positions are very important in this art, and before you begin to learn any submissions, you will probably go through a volley of escapes and transitions for positions. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has many submission holds/chokes/locks, and it borrows heavily from judo and japanese jiu jitsu. The difference however, is that in competition, fighters are not stood up if they spend a lot of time on the ground. Like Judo, BJJ competitors start off standing. and can only win by points, or a submission. Overall, BJJ is one of the greatest martial arts for ground work, but it has VERY limited stand up. Some BJJ schools do not even teach stand up. Some BJJ schools do however have classes dedicated to Standup. At my BJJ school, every Thursday is wrestling.
Closing statements: Both are effective on the street, and both are fairly physically demanding. Like the poster above said, do whatever is more fun for you. If you do however worry about these arts being effective, I would go with BJJ. 90% of fights go to the ground, whether one of the fighters gets knocked down, trips, or is taken down -- it happens. Judo is amazing for getting the fight to the ground, but BJJ is amazing for controlling the fight on the ground. A good throw could potentially knock out/hurt your opponent, but if he has experience on the ground, there will be no refs to stand you two up on t3h str33t:PComment
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Originally posted by ProudClod
Thank you very much, thats what i was looking for .Comment
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Judo has waaaaaay more emphasis on throws.
Also, the only "submission" techniques allowed are chokes, strangles, and armlocks, at least from what I know. However, some Judo dojos still practise some of the "illegal" techniques for self defense.
Another thing is that in Judo, if you hold your opponent down for 25 seconds, it is counted as a pin.
Lastly, in, say, 95% of Judo dojos, all techniques are practiced with the gi.
On the other hand, in BJJ, pins don't count (you still get a few points though), you are allowed to do other joint-locks besides armlocks, such as leglocks and spine-locks, and a lot of dojos split between gi and no-gi training which gives it a more realistic bent than only training gi.Comment
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The biggest difference between judo and BJJ is obviously judo's emphasis on stand-up and throws. Your choice will really depend on what you're looking for. If you want to become a really good ground fighter, BJJ is the way to go. If you want to be better standing, then judo is your choice.
One advantage of BJJ is that the learning curve is much quicker. Generally you can become fairly competant in BJJ and able to apply it fairly well in a fairly short time, say six months of so. The learning curve for judo is steeper and I would say you need at least a year or two to be competant in terms of applying it effectively on an unskilled opponent. Throwing and stand-up just seems to take longer to get good at.
In terms of the street effectiveness of each art, I kind of look at it this way. While "90%" of fights end up on the ground, probably 100% of them start standing. The limitation of BJJ is their stand-up work (which obviously will vary from club to club). You'll be hell on wheels on the ground but you need to get your opponent there. Judo will get them there. On a hard surface that's often all you need. A good hard throw will generally have an untrained opponent's head bounce off whatever surface you throw them onto and in my experience that's often enough for them to decide they're done. Often they aren't really sure what happened (especially if they're drunk) since most people have never experienced a foot sweep or o-soto before. Even if you're on the ground and fighting, judo ne-waza (unless you go to a REALLY shitty ne-waza club) is probably more than enough to subdue an unskilled opponent. The lack of kneebars and heel hooks in judo ne-waza is pretty unlikely to become a factor in this type of fight, chokes and armlocks will do you fine if you need them.
Lack of no-gi isn't much of an issue in terms of "street: since most fights will likely involve people wearing shirts. Shirts can be used fine for throwing but will likely only survive one attempt, after which you'll hopefully be on top of them one the ground.Last edited by Judobum; 8/21/2007 7:18am, .Comment
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The whole starting on the ground or standing is a bit misleading. I haven't cared about self defense in, well, forever; however, I'd imagine if I somehow ended up in some silly altercation I would likely have been blindsided and tackled. I'd also disagree that the initial learning curve is that bad with judo. Untrained people have amazingly poor balance, a crappy double can get them to the ground and a lot of throws that you may not be able to pull off against a novice training partner will work fine.
Judo and bjj are indeed the only martial arts I'd be confident sending family or friends to if self defense were their goal. I really don't care though. If you're that worried about self defense and the "street" I'd suggest you choose one of the following:
1) Get a better world view if you live in most developed nations
2) Move if you're in a developed nation but have a realistic reason for your concerns (if you can afford BJJ, you can afford to move)
3) Buy a gun
Those are pretty much in the appropriate order.Comment
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BJJ tends to be very strong on the ground. Judo tends to be very strong at takedowns.
With that being said, there are some BJJ clubs with good takedowns, and there are some Judo clubs that are very good with groundwork.
Although many BJJ folks prefer to fight from the top (on the ground), BJJ tends to place greater emphasis on working the various guard positions off of their backs. Judo tends to emphasize top position submissions and pins.
For self defense, both systems are totally valid. Whether you're tossing someone on their head, submitting from the bottom, choking from the top, or just pinning someone and bashing their face in, they can all be pretty solid approaches to winning a fight.Comment
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My advice for self defense is look for a school that offers a mix or cross trains in all ranges of fighting
Striking,
Throwing
Grappling
Most Judo places don't mix it up
Many BJJ places doComment
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Just to add in. If by self defense you mean escaping and living to fight another day, that probably gives judo a slight edge. The ability to throw the guy on the ground and run away is very nice for your continued health.
If it means winning fights, then probably BJJ gets a hair in front. It's got more ways to finish a fight, and I think Soju Joe is right that more BJJ places put gloves on occasionally.
Also I'd add that working the ground game gets more of other peoples sweat on you, while training throws is mostly your own. Big advantage judo.Comment
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In relation ot the Newaza aspect, personally, I've found Judo has a stronger emphasis on the pinning aspect when on the ground. BJJ players are very mobile and versatile on the ground, whereas Judo players tend to be very good at maintaining position. In other words, BJJ guys are good at getting into positions and out of them, whereas Judo seems to be good at acquiring and maintaining a dominant position. The only drawback is that some players have a tendency to turtle up and lay-n-pray until they can be stood back up.
I came to Judo from a Submission wrestling/kickboxing background, and although I did submit a few players, I was surprised by how strong the judo players could make a basic hold-down like kesa gatame. Needless to say, the Gi was a wake up call for me too, and I have been choked and locked many times. It's very hard to avoid subs when someone has complete positional dominance. Also, at first, I thought the limited range of submissions was a draw back, but I've found judo players tend to be extremely good at the techniques they use. Juji gatame, ude garame, etc, are very well done, and are the higher percentage moves anyway, IMO.
The three phases of grappling are Control-Position-Submission. Novice grapplers sometimes try to skip steps and as a result fail miserably. You can't sink a sub if you don't have an appropriate position.
It seems like wrestlers' strength is in the Control phase, Judokas excel at maintaining Position, and bjj players have the widest range of submission techniques. All three aspects are vital in each approach, of course, just with varying degrees of focus.
Personally, I'd love to get into Sambo, but there are no clubs here.Last edited by Deadmeat; 8/21/2007 4:51pm, .Comment
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Kosen judo is essentially collegiate judo and only exists in a few universities in japan. It isn't a style. There are however some judoka that specialize in ne waza but that's a different issue, and you're unlikely to find them in the US.
EDIT: Now my post makes even less sense. Not that I disagree with your moderation.Last edited by UpaLumpa; 8/21/2007 6:38pm, .Comment
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Thanx again to everyone who posted, it has been very imformative and pretty well balanced. Perhaps as expected there are without doubt pros and cons to both styles and equally without doubt both can be very effective forms of defence at the right time and with the right trainning (aliveness). I think for me i am kinda leaning a bit more in the way of judo, simply because of the interest factor as well as the dominace of position mentioned, i would like to think that i am a bit more of a striker, so judo may serve a means to an end for me a little more, but just for the record both seem to be very productive at what they do and perhaps both deserve their rightfull place as truely effective combat arts and sports. Thanx again for all the advice !Comment
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