Gi vs. No-gi... In the Str33t!

[Ryno]

This is a silly topic, I'll admit, but I've noticed this little issue come up numerous times in various grappling threads. It usually comes up like this, with a newbie asking:

"Hay guyz, I'm thinkin about doin sum BJJ, but the place neer my hous only do's gi class. I mean WTF is that? Ppl don't wear no gi's in the str33t! Gi sucks! No gi is for the reals! What do you guys thinks?"

I do mostly gi grappling. I live in Seattle where people wear rain jackets 10 months out of the year. Could I use these jackets to get a grip and toss an attacker on his head in the st33t? Yes, I could. Could I choke someone out with their overcoat? Yes, I could. Shit, for that matter, I could use a T-shirt for a good number of chokes.

The truth is that in Seattle, I have never seen someone walking down the street barefoot and barechested wearing some Tapout shorts. It just isn't done. Even in summer, most people wear pants and often times a light sweatshirt in the evening.

Therefore, in Seattle and many other cooler climates, gi grappling is actually more applicable to a "street" situation than is no-gi. No-gi has some very strong merits, but so does gi grappling. Newbs, please think about that before you go off on some little rant.

[Teh El Macho]

Man Ryno, trying to ask retards to think before ranting is like asking a pineapple to recite the multiplication tables. In any climate, gi grappling is applicable. The only places I could think people go naked or semi-naked is in, I dunno, New Guinea and the Amazons (or the nude beach we have down here).

Also, any grappler with decent skills, be it with gi or without, should have no problem in the street. So the question really has no logical basis.

You will develop an aneurism trying to educate stupid people. Most of the time, people ask such questions because

1. they are stupid and don't have a habit of thinking and analyzing questions before opening their mouths.
2. they already come with some preconceptions and an axe to grind (Ugh, Ugh, Grog thinks gi silly, so Grog says gi silly. Ugh, Ugh.)

One or two individuals may really be interested in grappling and genuinely need an answer to that question. But the majority are just stupid and will ask that question as well as "what do you do if a boxer does this?" There are trolls in the internet and in real life.

[cshirk]

Sounds dumb, but I was going to actually ask about the virtual merits of practicing in everyday wear - such as jeans and button-up shirt for myself - as opposed to a gi or something along those lines. My way of thinking of it is - especially for kicks - a gi leaves you much more freedom of movement then does what I usually see most people wearing everyday. Therefore there would be some merit at least in getting used to what your limitations are when dressed in "street clothes" or even a suit and tie.

[GoldenJonas]

Sounds dumb

Oooooo, I'm on the edge of my seat........

Therefore there would be some merit at least in getting used to what your limitations are when dressed in "street clothes" or even a suit and tie.

ummmm, yes....yes, it is dumb. I own 6 suits, probably 15-20 dress shirts, and 30 or so ties; no to mention a number dress slacks and polo shirt which I wear to work on a daily basis.

If I had to wear those cloths to train in I would be going through @12 $500-$750 dollar suits every month, plus @12 $35 dress shirts, plus torn ties, khakis, and polo shirts.

Suddenly my MA training is VERY cost prohibitive.

So, yes, your "idea" is a stupid one indeed.

Gi -vs- No-Gi.....the never ending debate of the simple minded grapplers who fail to see or ac cept the benifit and limitations to both.

[Ryno]

Sure you could do it, but you'd probably rip and destroy those clothes fairly fast. A Judo/BJJ gi is specifically designed to provide the handles/grip possibilities that you would commonly find in everyday clothes, but to also be durable and hold up to repeated abuse and not tear or stretch to the point of being destroyed.

[cshirk]

Conclusion: bad idea.

[SFire]

[Necroth]

Gi vs. No-gi on the street can come into play when dealing with rednecks, ie. the South, but really alot of we, the few, the proud, the ones who train no-gi grappling, are training no gi because we fight MMA. Which is about 90% no-gi. And we don't want to spend 50% of our time training ezekiels, lapel chokes, how to control wrists with sleeves, throws with gi grips, etc. It is less about the fact that, as someone above stated in support of NOT wearing a suit-and-tie to train in, street clothing rips fairly easy and gis do not, although that does come into play.

I am from Texas. We don't wear heavy coats (like the Michiganite who tried to tear my no-gi comments up by stating he would throw someone in a snowcoat the same as he'd throw them in a gi) and we don't wear thick shirts. Heck, rednecks rarely wear any shirts at all. And amazingly, most of the fights I've seen "on teh str33tz" involve drunken rednecks, since "civilized people" buy a gun, not bare knuckle brawl. So what part of a gi choke is useable on human skin?

Now, since I already stated the MMA connection to the support of no-gi training, here's an example of why it's important. The average judoka will be stronger at throwing than the average BJJ-ka. But the only Judoka I've seen truly pulling off Judo throws in MMA events w/o gi is Karo Parysian, who has trained w/o gi for years to do just that. Most rely on the one or two throws that inherently needed little gripping to utilize, instead of finding the correlating grips from no-gi training to use on their gi based throws.

That said, it's been shown as well that BJJ-ka who do nothing but gi grappling also translate poorly into MMA, and, more specifically, into no-gi competitions such as ADCC. Look at Eddie Bravo's multitude of wins in ADCC competition against BJJ-ka who spend most of their time in a gi and it's plain to see that if you want to win a competition without a gi, you shoudl train one without a gi. Bullshido prides itself on outing TMA's who don't spar but claim they have teh d34dly str33t sk1llz, how can anyone on Bullshido not out those who claim they can roll with a gi 5 times a week and own in no-gi comp? Seriously, it's two different situations, calling for two different setups. Sure, many subs and techniques overlap, but a no-gi trained grappler would never think he would be so good as to win at gi comps. That's where the sticking point truly is in the gi vs. no-gi battle. Too many of the gi-wearers think they have teh r34l BJJ and no-gi is a joke.

[money]

If I can go by what "COPS" tells me and my own experience with rednecks (which is pretty extensive), a lot of fights happen with guys who aren't wearing a shirt, or who take it off when shit is about to go down.

No-gi ftw. :deadhorse

[Cassius]

Look at Eddie Bravo's multitude of wins in ADCC competition against BJJ-ka who spend most of their time in a gi and it's plain to see that if you want to win a competition without a gi, you shoudl train one without a gi.

Using the word "Multitude" might be overstating the facts a little. You're also leaving out the part where after he beat the vaunted Royler Gracie, he got smashed by Leozinho, who trains gi and no gi.

I agree with the point you wanted to make, though. Do both, and/or gear your training to what you want to compete in. It's common sense.

[UpaLumpa]

Look at Eddie Bravo's multitude of wins in ADCC competition against BJJ-ka who spend most of their time in a gi and it's plain to see that if you want to win a competition without a gi, you shoudl train one without a gi.

Cassius was too nice on this.
You're fucking stupid. Bravo had ONE notable win, then got destroyed (by someone who spends a lot of time in a gi) and hasn't competed since. One is free to assume, or not, that his reticence to compete is due to a concern that losing would hurt his arguments and marketing success.

While if you're focusing on MMA, it of course makes sense to focus on no-gi (though many would argue the merits of some gi training due to a weight-vest affect) the cross-over from gi to no-gi grappling is not, in fact, that hard. You may find it educational to look at the training practices of those successful in ADCC over the last few years (they all spend a disproportionate amount of time in the gi). There are pedagogical reasons to do both, and both are fun (which is the real reason to do any of it).

Further, while you may have to fight rednecks wearing no shirts, that certainly is the exception. Most of the fights I've seen or been a part of have been in bars with no shirt, no shoes, no service policies. Then again I don't really care about "street fights".

[Necroth]

As for multitude, you're right. Other than Gustavo and Royler, nothing else for EB in ADCC. But, I gave reasons to train no-gi, not reasons you personally should care. I could care less whether you care or not. As for weight vest effect, the gi isn't that heavy and this isn't Dragon Ball Z, last time I checked at least.

As for training both, great idea and I agree that if you have the time and the place to do so, train both. I am currently buying a gi and filing in for the two days a week of gi grappling at the Vale Tudo gym that I have started training at. But, again, when I start back with MMA comps, I will cut down to one day a week gi, then no days a week gi before comp because it's not healthy to get used to the handholds and the gi game when you fight no-gi. But since the entire thread started with the "cold weather jackets make the gi game better!" post, I put in that a) not everyone trains in cold weather climates, and b) the gi vs. no-gi thing isn't really about clothing so much as MMA training. So don't bite my head off because you could care less about street fights when the thread itself was based on idiots claiming no-gi for that specific purpose.

[UpaLumpa]

The weight vest thing is more metaphor than literal (obviously, gi's top out around 10 pounds). Gi's slow down rolling and the grips they afford make it harder to escape subs and positions via sweat. Whether or not that is sufficient reason to continue training in a gi if you've little intent to compete in a gi, I don't know. Some people say yes, some say no. Like I said, I don't care, it's all fun.

[Ryno]

Necroth, my entire point of starting this admittedly silly thread was the fact that a large number of newbs on this site seem to think that gi-grappling is worthless. I just wanted to explain one situation where it is not, i.e. cold weather. Obviously no-gi has its merits, and for people in warmer climates might make more sense in a self-defense type situation. But to dismiss gi grappling as completely worthless is a ridiculously newbish mistake, that's all I was trying to point out. One is not better than the other, they are just different and both have their place which is what most of the veterans come to understand.

[Teh El Macho]

I see what you are trying to accomplish Ryno. Pretty good. One thing to remember is that people who want to dismiss gi grappling do so (most of the time) from the point of view of self-defense.

And these people don't stop to think (or don't know at all) that S/D will involve (most of the time) defending against some clueless punk, not against BJ Penn or Marcelo Garcia. If somebody has only trained with a gi and cannot defend himself against bare-chest John Doe (or viceversa, him who has only trained no-gi against John Doe with a trenchcoat), that's not a problem with jits gi (or no-gi).

That's a problem with him because he fucking sucks. So using hypothetical S/D scenarios to explain the advantages or dissavantages of using a gi (or no-gi) is an absurd.