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Legs too short to triangle, alternatives?

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    Legs too short to triangle, alternatives?

    So just some background. I'm 5'7", 205 lbs, with a 26 or 27" inseam. I have big beefy legs, which are a great benefit for keeping guys in guard, but they're almost impossible to close in a triangle.

    The few times I've been able to almost do it, i'm closing my leg onto the toes, rather than the ankle, as it seems most other people are able to do. Add to that the practically instant cramping that occurs seems to preclude me from performing a proper triangle. However, because my legs are beefy, even a non-fully closed triangle can tap guys out, but I have to grab onto my pants the entire time.

    So one thing I was wondering, given how beefy my legs are, it's totally possible for me to tap someone out by triangling my legs around just my opponent's neck, rather than his neck and arm. But I wonder, is there a hidden danger behind this? With my legs wrapped around just his neck, and both of his arms free?

    Does anybody else have this short leg problem? What do you do to overcome it, or alternatives used?

    #2
    I've tried that in mma sparring, the other guy stood up and started striking every time.

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      #3
      trying to triangle him without one arm in is giving him a pass, all he has to do is stack, push your legs to the side while sliding his head out, going to side control

      Comment


        #4
        If you can still get them to tap, then you must be getting it in tight enough, even without your ankle under your knee, so I wouldn't worry about it. Of course, if the triangle starts to slip, the obvious thing to do is just pull your top leg to the other side of his head to get the armbar.

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          #5
          Lose weight and stretch.

          I used to never be able to do triangles .I was 5'10" @ ~216. Now I am 185 and I can triangle. Some of it is the weight loss but don't underestimate proper stretching of the hip joints.

          Also position is key. If you are not lean and flexible you can't just "slap on a triangle". You'll have to work through positioning in order to apply it. At my gym we worked through a great series in which every step along the way from guard to triangle, you had control of your partner right through the execution of the technique.
          There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.

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            #6
            a: lose weight.

            b: turn off to an angle.

            c: one leg, one arm.

            d: ask your instructor to explain b and c.

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              #7
              Give it up man.
              Get yerself a battleaxe and do
              DWARF COMBAT

              off that there lord of them rings.

              Comment


                #8
                Get those hips high.

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                  #9
                  In a seminar with Ryron, he showed a slight (and simple) variation for this exact problem. Instead of killing yourself trying to get your knee over your ankle, just use your calve muscle to pull down on your ankle. If you have your same-side hand free you can grab your shin to help keep the pressure.
                  (Also, they say it's a bad idea to put downward pressure on your toes while triangling because your basically foot-locking yourself)

                  With shorter legs you will be able to generate enough pressure to tap anyone. Just make sure you are still getting a good angle, and really keeping their arm pulled over.

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                    #10
                    (Also, they say it's a bad idea to put downward pressure on your toes while triangling because your basically foot-locking yourself)

                    My instructor told us he saw someone suffer a broken (foot? ankle? can't remember) exactly this way when the person being held burst up to his feet. He always cites this as the reason why we need to grab our shin and not our toes when trying to close a triangle.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Yea what i've been doing lately is grabbing my pant sleeve with my left hand and there's plenty of pressure to force a tap there even without locking it behind my knee, but the worry is always what if I'm not wearing a gi, and also that leaves me with an arm tied down holding the lock (but maybe that's not a bad thing if the other guy is about to tap).

                      And honestly, losing weight won't really help me. My legs are all muscle. Big burly muscles. I'd have to lose that muscle in order to thin up enough to do a triangle without having to pull on my pant sleeve or leg

                      Comment


                        #12
                        There's a sloppy, but brutal alternative if you can't get the triangle closed properly:

                        Get into the approximate triangle position - one arm and head between your legs. Cross your ankles above his head. Reach around your legs with your arms, grasp your hands behind your knees. Squeeze the knees, extend your feet.

                        Use this only as a fallback if you really need to win, not as an excuse to stop working on a proper triangle!
                        There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I have short legs myself. I was basically unable to pull off a solid triangle my first two years of training until a brown belt showed me a few tips. Now it's probably my strongest sub while in the guard.

                          First, check your angle when applying the triangle. When you have short legs, it's usually beneficial to have even more of an angle than most people need. By this I mean if the centerline from your head to your feet isn't OUTSIDE of the forty-five degree angle formed by a line drawn from his head to his shoulder, then you probably don't have good position for the sub.

                          The old school way to correct this while sparring is to grab the ankle behind his head with an overhand grip, (DO NOT grab your toes) first, then release the figure four and push off on his same side hip with your other foot in order to get outside that forty-five degree angle previously mentioned.

                          edit: Keep his head low by pulling down with your hand on your ankle while doing this or he will posture up and escape.

                          Second, the angle helps with moving your foot, the one behind his head, till it's practically touching the far side of his head, almost to his far ear. This should allow you to open that same knee downward toward his lower back till there is a small triangle of open space between his head and the back side of your knee joint. You should then be able to lock the proper figure four if you follow these steps because the increased angle and 'downward knee' help you trap the smallest amount of neck and arm possible while still retaining good choke mechanics. This proved to be the key that led to my increase in success with regards to the triangle.
                          Last edited by jnp; 7/14/2007 12:28am, . Reason: massacred my original post
                          Shut the hell up and train.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by jnp
                            The old school way to correct this while sparring is to grab the ankle behind his head with an overhand grip, (DO NOT grab your toes) first, then release the figure four and push off on his same side hip with your other foot in order to get outside that forty-five degree angle previously mentioned.
                            I agree with every single point you make, but have a question about this. Recently, I've found that I have more success cinching the triangle if I adjust it by curling my abs up, hooking around my opponent's neck with one arm, and pulling from the side of my foot instead of the top of my shin with the other. If I'm having a really good night, being curled up into a ball of sorts allows me to spin to the side to get a much better angle on my opponent while I'm doing all this, too. So basically, I'm going against the old school advice on this, but I only started adjusting that way after watching Shinya Aoki do something like it, then stealing some ideas from Eddie Bravo on my own.

                            I've talked to my coach about it before, and he seems to think it's fine, but I thought I'd share this minor detail with you anyway. Any thoughts?
                            "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Cassius
                              I agree with every single point you make, but have a question about this. Recently, I've found that I have more success cinching the triangle if I adjust it by curling my abs up, hooking around my opponent's neck with one arm, and pulling from the side of my foot instead of the top of my shin with the other. If I'm having a really good night, being curled up into a ball of sorts allows me to spin to the side to get a much better angle on my opponent while I'm doing all this, too. So basically, I'm going against the old school advice on this, but I only started adjusting that way after watching Shinya Aoki do something like it, then stealing some ideas from Eddie Bravo on my own.

                              I've talked to my coach about it before, and he seems to think it's fine, but I thought I'd share this minor detail with you anyway. Any thoughts?
                              Old school is not the only way. I frequently hook the neck with my arm as well.

                              In an explanation like mine above, I try to leave out my stylistic details and stick to the basics. Plus I imagine your coach knows more than I do.

                              One note: Last night I changed 'slide the foot behind neck as close to the far side of his head as possible to make the triangle of space' to 'slide the the foot toward his far ear and open the same knee downward across his back to make the triangle of space'. You can obtain the triangle of space between the back of your knee and his head either way, but I think moving the knee downward on his back is a little bit harder to pull off.
                              Shut the hell up and train.

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