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    Shuai jiao versus judo?

    Ok, I realize that this thread is borderline trolling, but it's a serious question.

    A friend of mine is reading the Robert W. Smith book (I think it's called Martial Musings) and apparently he thinks that Shuai jiao basically sucks compared to judo, even though he generally likes chinese arts better than japanese ones. I guess he rolled with a bunch of guys who were considered some of the best Shuai jiao players in China, and he had no problem with any of them. He was a good judoka (I think 1st dan, maybe 2nd), but nothing that amazing. Anyway... your thoughts on this?

    And the lack of groundfighting just seems strange to me. When two people are trying to throw each other, would the situation pop up fairly quickly when both opponents are on the ground?

    He carries a gun.
    THE Arnold Schwarzenegger.
    A man with a plan.

    #2
    Most Judo is practiced bare-foot. There isn't much consideration to varying terrain or other enviro-factors. Shuai Chiao is also mostly practiced on a smooth, flat surface. Also, the manner of dress doesn't always reflect the realities of controlling with grips.

    If crossing hands is done outdoors and includes hitting, style means very little when players know how to exploit all the variables.

    Comment


      #3
      I have never fought a Shuai Chiao guy, so I will respond to Shooter's points.
      I would say all Judo is pretty much done bare footed, but I can not think of any moves in Judo that would not be made more effective with shoes on, better traction and all. Most Judo throws can be done with out a gi, unfortunatly most people do not practice it that way.
      And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.

      Comment


        #4
        That's a good point. I just started doing judo last week. When we actually get to throwing (it's just breakfalls for the next month or so) the people that I'm doing it with are all interested in doing it with varied types of clothing and whatnot to see how things change when the variables change. Terrain is going to be a little more tricky, as no one wants to get hurt. But grass and things like that will definately be used. And the mats in our club are fucking HARD. It's sawdust and newspaper. But I think in a couple of weeks they're going to switch to those traditional judo mats. I forget what they're called. They are also hard as hell (they're a little harder to the touch than what we use) but according to the instructors it has a little more give... but I'm not sure if I believe them.

        He carries a gun.
        THE Arnold Schwarzenegger.
        A man with a plan.

        Comment


          #5
          I know little about Shuai jiao, but it looks to me that it is basically the same as Judo. Perhaps its fault, if there is one, is that they dont Randori enough. But I dont really know how they train, so thats a bit of a stab in the dark.

          Robert W Smith is a Bagua man, seems strange he does Judo, although with Bagua that would be a cool mix.

          Comment


            #6
            I think Smith's criticism was that they didn't have much of a concept of softness. I guess they tried to be all hard all the time. And also, lack of groundfighting seems like a big drawback compared to judo as well.

            He did judo *before* he moved onto bagua and I believe Tai Chi. He quit judo.

            Yeah, I plan on doing Bagua and Judo. I think I'm starting Chen style Tai chi soon, and once I've got good posture and whatnot, I'm gonna move onto bagua (and maybe baji once I'm physically conditioned enough.

            He carries a gun.
            THE Arnold Schwarzenegger.
            A man with a plan.

            Comment


              #7
              This probably to do with Shuai jiao being more traditional than judo.

              Originally Judo didn't have much groundwork either. Rolling on the ground in the battlefield was a stupid thing to do so most jujitu didn't roll on the ground much. This doesn't mean they didn't have any ground work technqique. It did have number of Lock take-down and so on which was useful in the battle. But groundwork was considered as *quickie* thing so they didn't *roll* on the ground. Obviously, this will change if it become street fight.

              Judo introduced it after realising that they get busted in "contest' if they don't improve this aspect. I'm not that so sure but I read it somewhere that one school of jujitu took advantage of jujitu contest rule where you weren't allowed to kick or stamp the guy on the ground. So they just immediately lie down on the ground which is bullshit tacticis which worked if the other school had no ground work training.

              However, once newaza was introduced, they discovered that superior ability on the ground is significant advantage and soon, judo start to become groundwork contest so Kodokan took delivererate step to restrict newaza to keep judo as standup arts. The old rule is preserved in number of university judo clubs as Kosen judo.

              As of which art is better, I would go with "it's practioner that matter not the style" thingy. But since judo being an olympic sport, I think it has edge over Shuai Chiao in term of athlets.

              Comment


                #8
                Shuai Jiao, having do pretentsions of being sport, emphasises throwing in such a way as to make breakfalls impossible or other wise injure the thrown party. Examples include guiding the throwee all the way down so that they land on their head or falling on top of them so they get an elbow to the face or something as they land.

                Sorry to bring up the biting thing again but my favorite Shuai Jiao teacher likes to joke that SC people file their teeth every day for ground fighting. Last week he joked that they practice biting a raw pigs leg untill they can reach bone. Other less humorous groundfighting tactics involve things like breaking fingers one at a time.

                It's not that there aren't sport Shuai Jiao competitions but that they view ground work as not a thing to emphasise if you are thinking about real self defense as opposed to NHB contests. For example, Shuai Jiao tradition is to carry a small fish hook type knife to shank the guy as he lands.

                BAH ! Puny Humans !

                Comment


                  #9
                  How the hell do you practice stuff like that? I guess I could see a murderer being good as hell at it but... for someone who *doesn't* want to kill people just to train, it doesn't seem like too viable an option.

                  Also, some principles just seem *bad.* But I suppose I could be misunderstanding them, or maybe that Liang book marketed it in this way so that it'd sell well. For example:

                  "...compared to traditional Chinese wrestling, Jujitsu and Judo, San Shou Kuai Jiao emphasizes more speed when throwing. In contrast, traditional wrestling, Jujitsu and Judo emphasize obtaining good grappling position on an opponent's body or uniform first, and then applying the throw. In this way, it takes more time to throw down an opponent."

                  Does that sound odd to anyone? It doesn't sound impossible, but at the same time it sounds like a bad idea. It seems to de-emphasize destroying someone's structure before throwing them. If someone could explain that better it'd be appreciated...

                  He carries a gun.
                  THE Arnold Schwarzenegger.
                  A man with a plan.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    This probably to do with Shuai jiao being more traditional than judo.

                    Originally Judo didn't have much groundwork either. Rolling on the ground in the battlefield was a stupid thing to do so most jujitu didn't roll on the ground much. This doesn't mean they didn't have any ground work technqique. It did have number of Lock take-down and so on which was useful in the battle. But groundwork was considered as *quickie* thing so they didn't *roll* on the ground. Obviously, this will change if it become street fight.

                    Judo introduced it after realising that they get busted in "contest' if they don't improve this aspect. I'm not that so sure but I read it somewhere that one school of jujitu took advantage of jujitu contest rule where you weren't allowed to kick or stamp the guy on the ground. So they just immediately lie down on the ground which is bullshit tacticis which worked if the other school had no ground work training.

                    However, once newaza was introduced, they discovered that superior ability on the ground is significant advantage and soon, judo start to become groundwork contest so Kodokan took delivererate step to restrict newaza to keep judo as standup arts. The old rule is preserved in number of university judo clubs as Kosen judo.

                    As of which art is better, I would go with "it's practioner that matter not the style" thingy. But since judo being an olympic sport, I think it has edge over Shuai Chiao in term of athlets.

                    Engrish does not mine strong point
                    Or, uhm, no.
                    Judo was never a battlefield art. It always included groundwork, in fact, Judo use to be much more ground oriented, about 50/50. Then, when it becam an olympic sport it needed to A. Be entertaing to spectators and B. Look different than wrestling. That is when the focus on Stand-up became more prevelant.
                    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Shuai Chiao varies wildly in its training methods depending upon the teacher. For instance, the one shuai chiao school here in Atlanta is David Lin's Academy at www.combatshuaichiao.com. At this school they not only do the throwing-only randori type sparring, but also free sparring with strikes and locks. This is much superior for self defense than most judo schools' training.

                      I say this as a practicing judoka. Actually, I'd be going to Master Lin's school if it weren't on the other side of town...


                      - Skummer -

                      If you think you can speak about Tao, it is clear you don't know what you're talking about.
                      -Lao Tzu

                      Comment


                        #12

                        Or, uhm, no.
                        Judo was never a battlefield art. It always included groundwork, in fact, Judo use to be much more ground oriented, about 50/50. Then, when it becam an olympic sport it needed to A. Be entertaing to spectators and B. Look different than wrestling. That is when the focus on Stand-up became more prevelant.
                        Ahh, I think you are talking about post war judo. I'm talking about the time when it was Kano jujitu. Development of majority of judo newaza techniques is a result of judo's emphasis on randori.



                        Edited by - Vapour on May 24 2003 18:57:13

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I did bit more research. The jujitu school which used lot of ground works to defeat Kano jujitu 1900 was Fusen ryu, which apparently contributed to Judo's katame no kata (form of holds). Still up to 1914, the main emphasis of judo was on throwing. However, by 1925, it was recognised that there was too much emphasis on newaza in contest where fighters start to pull their opponents straight to the ground. So rules were changed to return judo to stand up arts.

                          Also, I read a book about Daito-ryu aiki-jujitu. It is probably not accurate to generalise from just one school but their ground work consist of one guy standing or kneeling and other guy on the ground being locked. A guys in E-budo who has seen number of ancient European fighting manuals has commented that the grappling technique demonstrated by European knights are remarkably similar to jujitu and there were complete absent of groundwork (as in rolling) technique.



                          Edited by - Vapour on May 24 2003 19:28:20

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Shuai Jiao, having do pretentsions of being sport, emphasises throwing in such a way as to make breakfalls impossible or other wise injure the thrown party. Examples include guiding the throwee all the way down so that they land on their head or falling on top of them so they get an elbow to the face or something as they land.
                            Having watched John Wang's clips, shuai chiao's throws aren't that different from judo's.

                            Judo throws can land someone on their head easily enough and I suspect the SC guys practice it as often as the judo guys do. That is, pretty much never on purpose (yeah, Cheng did throw one of his ukes directly on his neck; notice he grabbed someone new to receive the next throw). Likewise, judo has makikomi style throws as well.

                            Watching all those clips, there were only a coupla throws that didn't have judo equivalents. One was more of an aiki-style throw while the other was essentially ippon seoi nage (the SC guys call it bowing) from the outside. Yeah, that's a nasty throw.

                            Sorry to bring up the biting thing again but my favorite Shuai Jiao teacher likes to joke that SC people file their teeth every day for ground fighting. Last week he joked that they practice biting a raw pigs leg untill they can reach bone. Other less humorous groundfighting tactics involve things like breaking fingers one at a time.
                            I guess it's easier to ridicule something than it is to swallow your pride. In any case, have you ever had anyone bite you while you're working on a lock on the ground? I have. While it's mildly irritating and left some lingering scar tissue, it felt about the same as a really hard pinch. While I suspect it'd work okay if you tore a tendon, ligament, carotid arteries, or testicles, I'd bet it's a low-percentage technique against someone motivated.

                            Likewise, I've also had people try to get away by bending my fingers and by thumbing my eye. Bending the fingers probably worked about a 1/4 of the time (BTW: this percentage drops in relation to your opponent's skill) while the eye thing didn't work at all, er, since you can see it coming a mile away.



                            Edited by - fragbot on May 25 2003 11:19:51

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                              #15
                              not bending, breaking.

                              BAH ! Puny Humans !

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