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Best finishing techniques to teach my daughter for self defense BJJ

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    Best finishing techniques to teach my daughter for self defense BJJ

    I consider myself to be a pretty well rounded grappler. I've always tried to go with the flow and attack according to what openings my opponents leave me, not favoring any particular submissions over the others. However I'd like to begin going deeper into the art and really specializing on the setting up and finishing of 1-2 submissions. You know the whole Bruce Lee thing "I fear not the man who knows 1,000 kicks, but the man who has practiced 1 kick 1,000 times" or something like that.

    Anyway I've decided that I'd like to specialize in 1-2 submission types that I can teach my daughter when she's of age (now only 2 years old) for her self defense if she is ever attacked by a man (usually sexual). Obviously I don't want to start a "woman vs man" grappling thread. However I would like opinions on what are the 1 or 2 most practical finishing moves for women in a self defense scenario from with a BJJ mindset.

    My personal thoughts are that the triangle and the heel hook are top contenders. I've seen some of the smallest guys submit some of the biggest & toughest guys in the gym with heels hooks. And obviously the triangle choke is extremely strong and effective.

    So what are some of your opinions?

    #2
    Originally posted by jfingaz123 View Post
    I consider myself to be a pretty well rounded grappler. I've always tried to go with the flow and attack according to what openings my opponents leave me, not favoring any particular submissions over the others. However I'd like to begin going deeper into the art and really specializing on the setting up and finishing of 1-2 submissions. You know the whole Bruce Lee thing "I fear not the man who knows 1,000 kicks, but the man who has practiced 1 kick 1,000 times" or something like that.

    Anyway I've decided that I'd like to specialize in 1-2 submission types that I can teach my daughter when she's of age (now only 2 years old) for her self defense if she is ever attacked by a man (usually sexual). Obviously I don't want to start a "woman vs man" grappling thread. However I would like opinions on what are the 1 or 2 most practical finishing moves for women in a self defense scenario from with a BJJ mindset.

    My personal thoughts are that the triangle and the heel hook are top contenders. I've seen some of the smallest guys submit some of the biggest & toughest guys in the gym with heels hooks. And obviously the triangle choke is extremely strong and effective.

    So what are some of your opinions?
    Get Caio Terra's DVD set's, Emily Kwok's DVD sets, Bruno Malfichini's (I have not seen, but he is the right weight class) DVD sets.

    See the Gracie Academy / Gracie University Gracie Combatives punch defense series from the guard.

    Get a decent set on Triangles, such as Ryan Hall's or John Danahers (I have not seen this one, but I suspect it is thorough).

    Enroll her in firearm training with a qualified firearm trainer.

    Grapple fu is fun and all, but self defense comes down to situational awareness, avoidance strategies, the ability to extricate, and force multipliers like firearms.

    Also in many ways, Track and Field running and jumping sports are better self defense skills to acquire and keep than striking or grappling skills.

    Of course, yeah, yeah, if someone is between her legs, as an aggressor, the ability to put her feet on their hips and push away is fine, and hit triangles is fine, and do rear naked chokes is fine.

    But let's not get all LARPy about it.

    And enroll your toddler under the age of 8 in simple gymnastics for christ's sakes, as trying to make her a super ninja early is silly.

    Then from age 8 to age 13-14 I recommend Judo, or Wrestling, and then BJJ from 14 on.

    Boxing or boot to the head arts are always good adjunctive skill sets.

    Boxing is simple to learn the basics of and is high yield.

    Oh, and make sure her Judo/BJJ/Other martial arts coach does not sexually molest her by watching them like a hawk at all times, and never trusting anybody with your child alone.

    For fair press, a lot of female adult teachers are pedophiles to juvenile males too, as we have seen now that the language of the laws recognizes that as rape, too, and they can't just shuffle those female teachers to other school districts like the Catholics did with pedophile priests.
    Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 1/06/2020 7:48am, .

    Comment


      #3
      Well tricks without a way to execute them are pretty much worthless.
      So the real answer is get her into Judo, Wrestling, Sambo, BJJ, MMA
      If that is already the plan, the tricks will come with time and will be what works for her with resistance vs people that are bigger and stronger than her.
      But if I had to pick a couple of tricks:
      Mount Escape
      Side Control Escape
      100m dash
      Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
      –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by W. Rabbit
        Feel free to correct me anybody, but the heel hook doesn't seem like a great idea for SD.
        Heel Hooks from 50/50 have worked well in striking situations.
        Heel Hooks are fast and effective and are total fight enders.

        When we start talking about Male on Female violence it largely starts with Man Handling vs striking, so the ability to sit back into a heel hook isn't bad per say.
        Especially if its completely unsuspected and the Male doesn't know that they are in a "fight" yet and that they think they are just going to put their hands all over someone.

        However I want to state, Like all tricks, Leg Locks have to be a part of a complete tool bag, you have to have options other than that, you have to be able to transition to the back from 50/50 you have to be able to get out of the position.
        You have to have a whole system around it and not just welp here is how you do an inside heel hook.
        Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
        –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

        Comment


          #5
          Heel hooks are a wonderful way to get sued for crippling someone with an injury that often requires expensive corrective surgeries when the submission is applied in violent situations with vigor.

          Especially in your word against mine situations where the only fact not in dispute is the applier of the lock had training and twisted the receivers leg.

          Although I haven't had a chance to see it yet, I am sure Danaher's leg lock DVD footage would thoroughly make a jury understand that the intention of the lock is to tear the soft tissues of the knee in a very destructive manner.

          And that any number of certified black belt leg lock specialists from the competition circle would gladly take expert witness fees of several hundred dollars per hour to testify on behalf of the plaintiff.

          As well as the Physical therapist doctors, etc.

          Expert witness fees are a pleasantly generous way to earn money that makes one feel special and important.
          Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 1/06/2020 10:42am, .

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
            Heel hooks are a wonderful way to get sued for crippling someone with an injury that often requires expensive corrective surgeries when the submission is applied in violent situations with vigor.

            Especially in your word against mine situations where the only fact not in dispute is the applier of the lock had training and twisted the receivers leg.

            Although I haven't had a chance to see it yet, I am sure Danaher's leg lock DVD footage would thoroughly make a jury understand that the intention of the lock is to tear the soft tissues of the knee in a very destructive manner.

            And that any number of certified black belt leg lock specialists from the competition circle would gladly take expert witness fees of several hundred dollars per hour to testify on behalf of the plaintiff.

            As well as the Physical therapist doctors, etc.

            Expert witness fees are a pleasantly generous way to earn money that makes one feel special and important.
            This is all true, but does it not apply to all joint locks?
            Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
            –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

            Comment


              #7
              Not sure if this is not a troll post, but...

              In order for any child to maximize their potential at any sport, they need to build a solid base of athleticism AKA, physical literacy.

              As Dr. Gonzo pointed out, enrolling a child in gymnastics/tumbling is a good place to start.

              Other suggetions.
              1.) Keep her off the video games and TV. Spend time with her doing fun physical activities.
              a.) Going for walks and hikes with her, even short ones.
              b.) Read to her on a regular basis (in place of video games). Videos are good to watch, but not to babysit. If you
              have to do it, something interactive is a good choice. We used the sign language videos a lot. Kids love them.
              c.) Play games with balls, really, anything that requires physical manipulation. Playing catch with balls or soft toys
              is good, as appropriate. At 2, she will love it when you play with her physically, and talk to her. Make it fun,
              though, no worries about performance.
              d.) Play grapple with her. My boys loved that. Again, make it fun, not competitive, except that they get to "beat"
              Dad and/or Mom.
              e.) Avoid any sort of competitive sports program at first, and for a while. Don't let the gymnastics/tumbling teacher
              talk you into going competitive early on. Huge mistake. Same for Judo, karate, TKD, etc. A variety of different
              sports is what you want. Remember, you are building an athlete, and at the very least, a young woman who is
              healthy and likes to exercise, will be self-confident and assertive, and able to make decisions.


              The list could go on and on, but you get the idea(s).
              Falling for Judo since 1980

              "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

              "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

              "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by W. Rabbit
                Do you know of any cases where the heel hook stopped an assault, rape, etc?
                I am sure that the cross section of people that know how to properly heel hook and people being assaulted is very small. I would gander that even in those cases sweeping to mount was a much better plan. The heel hook is a wonderful tool but it still takes other grappling.
                Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                Comment


                  #9
                  Remember the situation is what dictates tactics.
                  Shit I am in San Diego, my assaulter very well might train some place, having a few counter grappling tricks up my sleeve isn't dumb.
                  Okay jokes aside. For "Self Defense" I always assume I have already failed and I have to work my way backwards from being on bottom.
                  But truth is "Self Defense" is a big term, am I dealing with a drunk co-worker at the Christmas Office Party that thinks I looked at his wife's boobs for too long?
                  Am I dealing with a homeless dude?
                  Am I out in a foreign port with my crew?
                  Situation dictates tactics.
                  So the more tools you have the better.
                  Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                  –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by W. Rabbit
                    Match enders, sure. But life or death situations? I'm not sold.

                    Is there any data out there suggesting heel hooks have ever been used in self defense to submit an attacker?

                    I only ask because there is plenty of evidence for other techniques like chokes, throws, even just guard long enough for help to arrive or exhaust an attacker enough to escape.

                    Do you know of any cases where the heel hook stopped an assault, rape, etc?
                    You guys are talking about heel hooks, WRabbit, you are the master of the derail, I salute you.

                    Heel hooks. You know, leglocks are in Sambo because if you break an enemy combatants knee, he can't fight anymore. Lot faster than shime waza, hence no shime waza in traditional Sambo.

                    *edit*
                    https://i.imgur.com/SPvnIBu.mp4
                    Last edited by BKR; 1/06/2020 11:25am, .
                    Falling for Judo since 1980

                    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                      Remember the situation is what dictates tactics.
                      Shit I am in San Diego, my assaulter very well might train some place, having a few counter grappling tricks up my sleeve isn't dumb.
                      Okay jokes aside. For "Self Defense" I always assume I have already failed and I have to work my way backwards from being on bottom.
                      But truth is "Self Defense" is a big term, am I dealing with a drunk co-worker at the Christmas Office Party that thinks I looked at his wife's boobs for too long?
                      Am I dealing with a homeless dude?
                      Am I out in a foreign port with my crew?
                      Situation dictates tactics.
                      So the more tools you have the better.
                      You are not a girl/young woman...

                      I mean, you can identify that way if you want, but...
                      Falling for Judo since 1980

                      "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                      "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                      "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by goodlun View Post
                        This is all true, but does it not apply to all joint locks?
                        Armlock positions are easily converted to pinning positions, where slight pain to the joint can be applied in a controlled fashion.

                        The elbow joint is chock full of nerves.

                        Not as much as the fingers, to be sure.

                        The twisting knee locks often do not result in pain, especially when the receiver is "warm" until permanent damage to the knee is done.

                        Any practical expert in twisting knee lock grappling should be expected to testify to the above, as well as any medical professional familiar with the knee joint and mechanism with which those locks are applied.

                        Twisting knee locks are designed to do one thing: destroy the knee joint, and often do so without prior pain signaling for pain compliance without actually permanently injuring the joint.

                        However, the Russian leg knot can be applied as a controlling pin without applying the heel hook.

                        Straight ankle lock positions can certainly be used as a controlling position.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          unless an expert grappler, a generally smaller, weaker female is not going to want to try to keep a MF pinned on the ground.

                          Prove me wrong. I mean, I'm a smaller, weaker male, and out side of work, I'm not going to try to keep a guy on the ground, any longer than it takes me to put him or her out of commision, or get distance (I can't outrun anybody anymore), draw weapon and/or get help.
                          Falling for Judo since 1980

                          "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                          "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                          "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Attn Bullshido members, if you are a white belt in BJJ, or a novice grappler in any art, I expect you to read more than you type.

                            Asking questions is always ok. Pontificating and/or theorizing is not.

                            This statement does not apply to the person that started this thread.
                            Shut the hell up and train.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by W. Rabbit
                              Match enders, sure. But life or death situations? I'm not sold.

                              Is there any data out there suggesting heel hooks have ever been used in self defense to submit an attacker?

                              I only ask because there is plenty of evidence for other techniques like chokes, throws, even just guard long enough for help to arrive or exhaust an attacker enough to escape.

                              Do you know of any cases where the heel hook stopped an assault, rape, etc?
                              Heel hooks were a staple of Sport and Combat Sambo before FIAS banned them. There are many variations that can be done from a standing position with a single leg.

                              So if we take what is the highest percentage take down across every grappling system that allows them as well as MMA. Couple it with a submission that will pretty much tear every ligament in the knee if truly cranked, and has been shown to be effective even against high level grapplers.

                              Now you want to ask if that will work in a self defense situation?

                              Well in my opinion it shouldn't be the only tool in your tool box, but it should be one of them, and knowing how to do it from the standing position is a good idea as well.
                              Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

                              "But now that you've anointed him as truthsayer, you'll be complicit with what happens when the next Jew comes here and is lambasted by an ultrasecular Rabbi" -W.Rabbit/Pship/Emily Dickinson/Earth Dragon/Self Proclaimed Editor Extraordinaire

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