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    Judo Vs a Group/Self Defense

    I was wondering if anyone feels that there is merit to learning/teaching some basic judo moves when dealing with a group of opponents. Especially trips like De Ashi Barai.


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    #2
    Originally posted by remington50 View Post
    I was wondering if anyone feels that there is merit to learning/teaching some basic judo moves when dealing with a group of opponents. Especially trips like De Ashi Barai.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    If you are dealing with a group of opponents, and one of them grabs you, Judo and Wrestling throws, whether or not set up with a vicious strike, come in handy.

    One need not go to the ground with the person one is striking with the planet.

    For that matter, depending on the available terrain and obstacles, one need not throw them on a welcoming flat surface, or a surface without edges or blunt objects, or soft landing areas.
    Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 4/04/2019 9:08am, .

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      #3
      Originally posted by Dr. Gonzo View Post
      If you are dealing with a group of opponents, and one of them grabs you, Judo and Wrestling throws, whether or not set up with a vicious strike, come in handy.

      One need not go to the ground with the person one is striking with the planet.

      For that matter, depending on the available terrain and obstacles, one need not throw them on a welcoming flat surface, or a surface without edges or blunt objects, or soft landing areas.

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        #4
        Jacket wrestling has advantage in environments where heavy shirts and jackets are worn,

        And no jacket wrestling often has grip advantage in warmer climes.

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          #5
          Being thrown on the real world can be more devastating than a strike, and a thrown opponent can be an obstacle between you and other opponents. Also, seeing their buddy get thrown might make them rethink their attack- they may have only attacked in the first place because they thought they had an overwhelming advantage.

          Some martial artists will say that you should never grapple with a crowd. Its been shown time and time again that such martial artists often can't keep a single opponent from grappling with them, so chances are high that grappling will happen if you want to or not. Especially when they get the idea that each opponent will pick a limb and immobilize it.

          In college, I took a self defense course taught by a competitive judo coach. One drill we did was we'd split up into groups of 4, and each person would get a number 1 through 4, then we'd lay like sardines on the ground. The coach would shout out a number, and if it was you, you'd get up and run to the door. If it wasn't you, you and the other 3 would try to capture that person before they escaped. It was super fun, but also eye opening to the dynamics of multi-person grappling. Knowing how to escape grips and improvise was key.

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            #6
            Anyone who is going to fight or need to defend themselves needs to know how to grapple. However, that doesn't mean you need to grapple when fighting or defending yourself. Going to the ground in a crown is a sketchy situation. If you are going to cuff them, you are going to have to go to the ground. It's way easier that way. However, if you are buy yourself and surrounded, don't do it. Maintain your safety. Know how to grapple so you can get away. Don't go to the ground willingly until you have backup or a situation where you are not about to get kicked in the head.

            Cuffs can wait for a safe time to do it. You going home is more important than getting that person cuffed up with then. Leave the ego at the door.

            Just my opinion.
            Combatives training log.

            Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

            Drum thread

            Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

            "Disliking someone is not evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance or even bias." --Dung Beatles

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              #7
              I would say that a person who knows some "basic" Judo isn't going to be very good at Judo.

              So applying Judo in a multi-attacker/opponent environment with that level of training isn't going to be very effective. Not saying it would not be of use, but after a lifetime of teaching Judo, I can say that just "knowing" 2 or three throws at a basic level isn't going to add much to your ability to defend yourself.

              Trying to avoid being grabbed, or to get clear to either draw a weapon or run like hell, is sort of a separate skill from Judo in general. Good tai sabaki would be helpful. Judo training in general is pretty specific, and does not involve multiple attackers usually.

              So, no, not really, at a basic level. A well-trained black black belt in Judo would be better off, but really, would need specific scenario training to maximize effect of his/her judo skills.
              Falling for Judo since 1980

              "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

              "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

              "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

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                #8
                Originally posted by BKR View Post
                Judo training in general is pretty specific, and does not involve multiple attackers usually.
                What is the training like when it involves multiple attacker scenarios?

                Trying to avoid being grabbed, or to get clear to either draw a weapon
                In your opinion, would cross training in another art which teaches weapon usage work out or is Judo weapons training already enough? What weapon did you use that you found works best in a real life scenario?


                So, no, not really, at a basic level. A well-trained black black belt in Judo would be better off, but really, would need specific scenario training to maximize effect of his/her judo skills.
                How would a black belt Judo practitioner handle a multiple attacker situation?
                Last edited by Awesomeg; 4/07/2019 2:46pm, .

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Awesomeg View Post
                  What is the training like when it involves multiple attacker scenarios?
                  Pretty contrived.

                  Unless one is part of a group of multiple attackers.

                  If there has to be a multiple attacker situation, it is better to be a multiple attacker, than attacked by multiple attackers.

                  That might be worthwhile training...
                  Originally posted by Awesomeg View Post
                  In your opinion, would cross training in another art which teaches weapon usage work out or is Judo weapons training already enough? What weapon did you use that you found works best in a real life scenario?
                  Firearms, cover, concealment, evasion,

                  using your cell phone to call the cops,

                  and/or using a vehicle to drive away.
                  Originally posted by Awesomeg View Post
                  How would a black belt Judo practitioner handle a multiple attacker situation?
                  Last edited by Dr. Gonzo; 4/07/2019 3:04pm, .

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Awesomeg View Post
                    What is the training like when it involves multiple attacker scenarios?


                    In your opinion, would cross training in another art which teaches weapon usage work out or is Judo weapons training already enough? What weapon did you use that you found works best in a real life scenario?



                    How would a black belt Judo practitioner handle a multiple attacker situation?
                    Judo does not have weapons training.

                    Judo does not train multiple attackers, unless maybe in context of specific self defense training.

                    Weapons depends on what you can legally carry where you live.

                    I personally avoid fights in my private life.

                    Staying away from risky places and situational awareness.

                    Getting proficient at individual opponents self-defense is difficult enough you would have to dedicate a lot of time and effort to be able to have a
                    chance of escaping a multiple attackers situation.
                    Falling for Judo since 1980

                    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Awesomeg View Post
                      What is the training like when it involves multiple attacker scenarios?


                      In your opinion, would cross training in another art which teaches weapon usage work out or is Judo weapons training already enough? What weapon did you use that you found works best in a real life scenario?



                      How would a black belt Judo practitioner handle a multiple attacker situation?
                      I think a better question would be, where would you be when you have to deal with multiple attackers? There are some specific scenarios that are possible. But some you wouldn't be dealing with. For example, a prison riot, public riot, bouncer at a bar, or combat zone are a couple that I can think of where you would have to deal with the situation and not run. If you don't work in one of those occupations, you can limit down the possibilities of a multiple attacker situation to pretty slim. In which case, you can spend your time training for stuff that is a higher possibility and easier to train for.

                      Training for multiple attackers involves mass confusion, pain, and trying to learn to think while dealing with it. Easier to train for multiple attackers in the situation you will be dealing with. For example, you don't want to train for it in a combat zone if you are going to be in a prison. And the same in reverse.
                      Combatives training log.

                      Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

                      Drum thread

                      Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

                      "Disliking someone is not evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance or even bias." --Dung Beatles

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Diesel_tke View Post
                        Anyone who is going to fight or need to defend themselves needs to know how to grapple. However, that doesn't mean you need to grapple when fighting or defending yourself. Going to the ground in a crown is a sketchy situation. If you are going to cuff them, you are going to have to go to the ground. It's way easier that way. However, if you are buy yourself and surrounded, don't do it. Maintain your safety. Know how to grapple so you can get away. Don't go to the ground willingly until you have backup or a situation where you are not about to get kicked in the head.

                        Cuffs can wait for a safe time to do it. You going home is more important than getting that person cuffed up with then. Leave the ego at the door.

                        Just my opinion.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by remington50 View Post
                          I think the main point would be less like “Olympic” judo where they go to the ground (even ending in unfavorable positions) for a throw, and more like traditional Kodokan Judo or even Sumo. Where you don’t want to hit the ground EVER.


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                          "Olympic Judo" is just a subset. A skilled person can decide if go to ground or not. It

                          I think the primary problem with Judo as self defense, in general, is that self defense is not really part of the larger judo curriculum.

                          When I started Judo (1980), my sensei specifically taught self defense applications. He was for sure more "old school" Judo than what is most common today. Typically, you wanted to stay on your feet, after throwing.

                          We also competed regularly under normal rules, which were mostly less restrictive than todays standard IJF rules.

                          After that though, it was all pretty much sport competition oriented. Because that is what is fun.

                          Learning basic Judo does not really involve a lot of falling to the ground with/on top of your training partner, though.
                          Falling for Judo since 1980

                          "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                          "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                          "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Diesel_tke View Post
                            I think a better question would be, where would you be when you have to deal with multiple attackers? There are some specific scenarios that are possible. But some you wouldn't be dealing with. For example, a prison riot, public riot, bouncer at a bar, or combat zone are a couple that I can think of where you would have to deal with the situation and not run. If you don't work in one of those occupations, you can limit down the possibilities of a multiple attacker situation to pretty slim. In which case, you can spend your time training for stuff that is a higher possibility and easier to train for.

                            Training for multiple attackers involves mass confusion, pain, and trying to learn to think while dealing with it. Easier to train for multiple attackers in the situation you will be dealing with. For example, you don't want to train for it in a combat zone if you are going to be in a prison. And the same in reverse.
                            Yeah, boils down to having strong fundamental techniques, fitness, and training, then going to specific situational training, including stress management.
                            Falling for Judo since 1980

                            "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

                            "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

                            "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

                            Comment


                              #15
                              when i go running in the evenings i carry a telescopic baton. I have trained in some systems over the years such as judo,aikido, wing tsun. Boxing in the British army as a young pup. I think if you are out and need to fight more than one guy who might be armed you need a weapon. learn some stick fighting , escrima, kali..etc. If you are fast with multiple strikes you can cause damage quickly. as pointed out do not go to the ground !!

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