Improving take downs in grappling.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Why would you throw some tricky takedown at an untrained dude? I can hit nearly any throw physics will allow on an untrained person why would I choose this one.?It's a ridiculous premise on top of the rest of the theme of your comment being incorrect.

Yeah, sacrifice throws became a lot more popular the better mats became, and the more sportive Judo became, I suspect.
I think this is why we see some of the slight finish styles and frequency of finishes demonstrated evolve in certain directions as we look at the oldest Judo footage until now.
Dropping to both knees, or on to your hip, or rolling backwards on concrete (or worse on broken glass or rocks) sometimes does not work out for person hitting the sacrifice throw, you know?
I hate it when I bruise or cut myself trying to be clever...

[BKR]

No Ben..... precisely the opposite is what he is recommending. He is saying that they SHOULD Square up to sprawl. He isn't taking into account the forward throws that become available to the tori from the jacket grips. He isn't aware that is the favored stance for an opponent to have for someone who is looking for forward throws.

Yes, I thought of that too but wanted to be clear on what preschol was really writing about.

Ronda Rousey would be a good example of someone who would use various means to get people to square up so they could be taken down by forward throws. Or other throws depending on how they reacted. As you know, same principles, jacket or not.

[BKR]

Correct; we had not even discussed uchi-mata or every other nasty throw counter yet except the scissors takedown.
I got away with single leg takedowns when competing as a brown belt in Judo.
But when competing in the black belt division of Judo, every time I tried to hit a single I got Uchi-mated, sumi-gaeshi'd or got hit with some other ashi-waza or leg assisted hip throw.
Big difference between competing in Judo against brown belts versus black belts in Judo...combinations, continuous attacks, and counter offense is much higher.

Direct single or double shots from no gripping were fairly common when I started competing, when "leg grabs" were still allowed. My teacher trained me in the counters you describe. Funnily, when he encountered a real, live D-1 wrestler (from U. of Oklahoma), he got thrown with a body-tie up type throw, not a shooting throw.

I used leg and knee picks as combinations usually, rather than straight shots from no grips. I miss those days, the leg grabbing aspect made for a very multidimensional style of Judo, even more so than it usually is.

[BKR]

Why would you throw some tricky takedown at an untrained dude? I can hit nearly any throw physics will allow on an untrained person why would I choose this one.?It's a ridiculous premise on top of the rest of the theme of your comment being incorrect.

Because it looks cool ?

I agree, throwing an untrained person is pretty damned easy. The concern is usually that uke isn't injured...

[Dr. Gonzo]

Ronda Rousey would be a good example of someone who would use various means to get people to square up so they could be taken down by forward throws. Or other throws depending on how they reacted. As you know, same principles, jacket or not.

Yup, Koshi Guruma to Kouchi Gari, and Kouchi Gari to Koshi Guruma, rinse and repeat.

[BKR]

Yeah, sacrifice throws became a lot more popular the better mats became, and the more sportive Judo became, I suspect.
I think this is why we see some of the slight finish styles and frequency of finishes demonstrated evolve in certain directions as we look at the oldest Judo footage until now.
Dropping to both knees, or on to your hip, or rolling backwards on concrete (or worse on broken glass or rocks) sometimes does not work out for person hitting the sacrifice throw, you know?
I hate it when I bruise or cut myself trying to be clever...

Sutemi waza are considered to be high-level Judo. Just look at the Koshiki No Kata, for example.

The double-knee drop Seoi Otoshi/Nage is a sort of sutemi waza. The concept in wrestling would be something like "level change", although sutemi has more meaning than that in Judo/JJJ.

It's not the best thing to do when a ippon throw won't win a match and taking a guys back is worth 4 points, though, LOL! Unless you do that sideways/twisting one like that one BJJ competitor.

[BKR]

Yup, Koshi Guruma to Kouchi Gari, and Kouchi Gari to Koshi Guruma, rinse and repeat.

She used ouchi gari as well, and kosoto gari, unless my memory is failing me.

It was amusing to watch her chucking people around with what is fairly basic Judo (very well executed), in MMA. It took a while for opposing coaches to figure that shit out, but when they did, well...

[Dr. Gonzo]

Direct single or double shots from no gripping were fairly common when I started competing, when "leg grabs" were still allowed. My teacher trained me in the counters you describe. Funnily, when he encountered a real, live D-1 wrestler (from U. of Oklahoma), he got thrown with a body-tie up type throw, not a shooting throw.

I used leg and knee picks as combinations usually, rather than straight shots from no grips. I miss those days, the leg grabbing aspect made for a very multidimensional style of Judo, even more so than it usually is.

Now it's funny that you mention that.
Because I switched to doing body lock throws (and ankle pick Judo equivalents) as a result after getting tossed by the black belts from going after singles.
I had a certain percentage of success in doing so due to sheer aggression, being in my twenties, and my wrestling background.
But at one point, one of my Judo training partners kind of shamed me, calling what I was doing "rough Judo" or "ugly Judo".
And because I respected him, and because he had rather beautiful and effective upright Judo, very Japanese in style, I largely abandoned my wrestler in a gi style, and relearned Judo from a more upright, Japanese style.
Years later, after getting the artificial hips and wrecked knees, I relearned Judo yet a fourth time (because BJJ focused Judo was it's own Judo learning as well, and I count that as a third relearning of Judo from yet another perspective),
and I relearned Judo from the perspective of minimal strength, minimal direct resistance, more ashi-waza action, and falling aggressively when in doubt.
I know that it sounds ironic that with wrecked legs, I switched to a more legwork and less arm pushy-pully style of Judo, but this was actually easier on my leg disabilities, to float and surf, rather than try to dominate my opponent bluntly.
And it was in my view, a better old man style of Judo appropriate for my age and progressive injuries, which are only going one direction anyway.
It took me over 20 years of Judo before I think I started to practice Judo with anything resembling the practice principles Kano may have originally outlined in his Judo text book that I was supposed to be practicing all along.

[BKR]

Now it's funny that you mention that.
Because I switched to doing body lock throws (and ankle pick Judo equivalents) as a result after getting tossed by the black belts from going after singles.
I had a certain percentage of success in doing so due to sheer aggression.
But at one point, one of my Judo training partners kind of shamed me, calling what I was doing "rough Judo" or "ugly Judo".
And because I respected him, and because he had rather beautiful and effective upright Judo, very Japanese in style, I largely abandoned my wrestler in a gi style, and relearned Judo from a more upright, Japanese style.
Years later, after getting the artificial hips and wrecked knees, I relearned Judo yet a fourth time (because BJJ focused Judo was it's own Judo learning as well, and I count that as a third relearning of Judo from yet another perspective),
and I relearned Judo from the perspective of minimal strength, minimal direct resistance, more ashi-waza action, and falling aggressively when in doubt.
I know that it sounds ironic that with wrecked legs, I switched to a more legwork and less arm pushy-pully style of Judo, but this was actually easier on my leg disabilities, to float and surf, rather than try to dominate my opponent bluntly.
And a better old man style of Judo appropriate for my age, which is only going one direction anyway.

Well, it is the flexible way/path...

I do mostly ashiwaza because my shoulders/wrists cannot take much abuse anymore. Turning throws are not much fun to do.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Well, it is the flexible way/path...

I do mostly ashiwaza because my shoulders/wrists cannot take much abuse anymore. Turning throws are not much fun to do.

I edited this in after your post:

It took me over 20 years of Judo before I think I started to practice Judo with anything resembling the practice principles Kano may have originally outlined in his Judo text book that I was supposed to be practicing all along.

I was over two decades of say one thing but actually practicing in a perpendicular manner to what I was saying without even realizing it.
Youth may not be wasted on the young, but boy was I a stubborn knucklehead.

[Raycetpfl]

! Unless you do that sideways/twisting one like that one BJJ competitor.

[NeilG]

She used ouchi gari as well, and kosoto gari, unless my memory is failing me.

Harai-goshi is a staple for her, and I think I saw her do kibisu gaeshi once (ankle pick for everyone else).

[Raycetpfl]

Yup, Koshi Guruma to Kouchi Gari, and Kouchi Gari to Koshi Guruma, rinse and repeat.

Don't forget the ogoshies.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Don't forget the ogoshies.

Yeah, a lot of people hate on her, but Rousey, like Karo Parisyan, brought beautiful and effective Judo into the Octagon.

[BKR]

I edited this in after your post:

I was over two decades of say one thing but actually practicing in a perpendicular manner to what I was saying without even realizing it.
Youth may not be wasted on the young, but boy was I a stubborn knucklehead.

I was pretty good at Kouchi Gari, in fact my original coach let it slip one time to a mutual friend of ours that it was the only throw I had mastered. Then she told me he said that, LULZ all the way around. Now I suck at Kouchi Gari, because I quit doing it on purpose to work on other throws.

My other ashi waza were OK. Then I had my knee surgery in 1987. No Judo for 6 months...then only groundwork, but as you know that's not exactly super safe for a repaired ACL.

I did a serious study of ashi barai (De Ashi Barai, Okuri Ashi Barai, and Harai Tsurikomi Ashi) for a year or so with one of my teachers in New Orleans (Jacque Legrand, RIP) because of my knee rehab (physio and psychological).

Thanks to Jacques, I got a lot better at ashi barai. Never good enough to beat black belts in competition (at national level), but way, way better than I ever had been before.

Anyway, Judo has many aspects, but it's all still Judo.