Improving take downs in grappling.

[preschol]

[QUOTE=BKR;2927684]Oh, I begin to see what you mean by "square" up now.

But you keep saying that a good wrestler will "square up".

So, you are talking about the person doing the take

Great point. Yes, the GI changes EVERYTHING. I had, at best, maybe a years worth of Judo, and this forum is full of Judo experts. I am 100% ready for any advice they may have.

Like I said, Judo is a fantastic self defense art, especially in cold weather. I will take all the advice I can.

[BKR]

[QUOTE=preschol;2927688]

I've seen Kani Basami work in high level judo competition (when it was still a legal technique). It works, but like anything else, it does not work all of the time.

The video is demonstration, to show the principles/concepts of the technique.

At :49, an action

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. :)

The reason you may see it in Judo and not wrestling is because in Judo you behave a solid grip on your opponents collar.

Wow, I never would have though having a jacket on makes a difference...

You might want to not post video of jacket-wrestling experts doing techniques that might not be as effective non-jacket setting as an example of what won't work in a non-jacket setting.

[Dr. Gonzo]

No. The high single require you to have a full armed grip while you pull the leg away. Also, trap the leg inside your 2 legs. The flying scissors is thus impossible.

To get out you first must have excellent balance and be able to defend his sweeps/pulls/turns. Watch GSP against Johnnie Hendricks. You must free your leg, then place your shin against his thigh and drice your foot to the floor. You also need to set your wizzer and push his head away with your left hand.

You never see the flying scissors in wrestling because it won't work against someone with training.

But like I said, it is good for SD.

I wonder why guys like Ken Chertow teach a modified version of it that is legal for wrestling then...
And I wonder why so many Sambo guys sugarfoot their leg to wrestlers to invite them to hit a single leg in both gi and no gi grappling environments and then hit a scissor throw on them followed by a leglock finish if the wrestler takes the offered bait....

[BKR]

[QUOTE=preschol;2927689]

Oh, I begin to see what you mean by "square" up now.

But you keep saying that a good wrestler will "square up".

So, you are talking about the person doing the take

Great point. Yes, the GI changes EVERYTHING. I had, at best, maybe a years worth of Judo, and this forum is full of Judo experts. I am 100% ready for any advice they may have.

Like I said, Judo is a fantastic self defense art, especially in cold weather. I will take all the advice I can.

Please put the complete quote in for proper context. For some reason it keeps getting cut off.

No, the gi does not change everything, it changes some things. Wrassling is wrasslin...

[Omega Supreme]

[QUOTE=preschol;2927688]

I've seen Kani Basami work in high level judo competition (when it was still a legal technique). It works, but like anything else, it does not work all of the time.

The video is demonstration, to show the principles/concepts of the technique.

At :49, an action

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. :)

The reason you may see it in Judo and not wrestling is because in Judo you behave a solid grip on your opponents collar.

orly? I was going to stay out of this conversation until I saw this. What is your grappling background that would make you come to this conclusion?

[Raycetpfl]

Oh, I begin to see what you mean by "square" up now.

But you keep saying that a good wrestler will "square up".

So, you are talking about the person doing the take-down will maneuver the person he is attacking to square up, this making the take-down easier due to directional postural weakness.

I would agree that is a fundamental skill to take down or throw a resisting opponent. I would add there are a lot of ways to do that, and that as Bill pointed out earlier, adding a jacket and/or pants changes things up a bit (adds possibilities) to the equation.

There are also ways to throw a guy that due not rely on changing angles to overcome the staggered stance (it's called migi or hidari shizentai (right or left natural posture) or migi or hidari jigotai (right or left defensive posture) in Judo).

In Judo, we (or some people) call it "t-ing up" on your opponent so you can apply force in the direction of their least ability to resist.

So, a good judoka will try to get t-ed up on their opponent.

Then there is the triangle thing with the base drawn between opponents insteps and the apex out front of him.

No ben..... precisely the opposite is what he is recommendeding. He is saying that they SHOULD Square up to sprawl. He isn't taking into account the forward throws that become available to the Torre from the jacket grips. He isn't aware that is the favored stance for an opponent to have for someone who is looking for forward throws.

[Dr. Gonzo]

No ben..... precisely the opposite is what he is recommendeding. He is saying that they SHOULD Square up to sprawl. He isn't taking into account the forward throws that become available to the Torre from the jacket grips. He isn't aware that is the favored stance for an opponent to have for someone who is looking for forward throws.

Correct; we had not even discussed uchi-mata or every other nasty throw counter yet except the scissors takedown.
I got away with single leg takedowns when competing as a brown belt in Judo.
But when competing in the black belt division of Judo, every time I tried to hit a single I got Uchi-mated, sumi-gaeshi'd or got hit with some other ashi-waza or leg assisted hip throw.
Big difference between competing in Judo against brown belts versus black belts in Judo...combinations, continuous attacks, and counter offense is much higher.

[Michael Tzadok]

A well trained high level wrestler will indeed screw with your attempts to get or maintain correct single leg head position,
but I am still confused why you seem to think that a well trained high level wrestler would "sprawl" as their primary go to defense or counter offense against a head inside single leg take down.
Sprawling is perhaps over-utilized at the high school and lower grade wrestling level because you only have so much time to teach the kids some goto concepts.
But at the college level and above (and even in very competitive high school) wrestling programs, wrestlers would know and practice actual counter-offense to a head inside single legs,
and I myself would not consider a classic hips straight down sprawl (on its own without hitting some funk or making them switch their head position first) an appropriate scoring counter-offense to a head inside single leg takedown, including under even high school wrestling rules, because it is just to easy to cut the angle versus the sprawl and hit a multitude of options to score or return to neutral, unless they funk or hit other options.

Correct Murph. In Jr. Olympics, and pretty much any Free Style academy they teach stacks and throw bys as the go to defenses for a properly executed single leg. Idea being that they will be worth 2 to 3 points, and usually put you in better position.

[Michael Tzadok]

You never see the flying scissors in wrestling because it won't work against someone with training.

You don't see it in wrestling for 2 reasons
1) Sweating unclothed bodies are slippery AF
2) Under most wrestling rule sets you have doubtful established control and your back is to the mat... not good

The reason you may see it in Judo and not wrestling is because in Judo you behave a solid grip on your opponents collar.

No, the reason you don't see it in wrestling is because you are putting your back to the mat with doubtful established control, under under some rule sets you may wind up giving your opponent a touch fall especially if your hand slips off his sweaty neck/shoulder.

1st rule of wrestling is, NEVER put your back to the mat. 2nd Rule of wrestling is NEVER put your back to the mat. Considering the leg scissor violates the first two rules of wrestling without any sort of positive control(arms enwrapping waste or legs) that would be why the movement is not used in wrestling.

[Raycetpfl]

You don't see it in wrestling for 2 reasons
1) Sweating unclothed bodies are slippery AF
2) Under most wrestling rule sets you have doubtful established control and your back is to the mat... not good


No, the reason you don't see it in wrestling is because you are putting your back to the mat with doubtful established control, under under some rule sets you may wind up giving your opponent a touch fall especially if your hand slips off his sweaty neck/shoulder.

1st rule of wrestling is, NEVER put your back to the mat. 2nd Rule of wrestling is NEVER put your back to the mat. Considering the leg scissor violates the first two rules of wrestling without any sort of positive control(arms enwrapping waste or legs) that would be why the movement is not used in wrestling.

In folk I imagine it would be more prominent because of the longer pin requirements maybe?

[Michael Tzadok]

In folk I imagine it would be more prominent because of the longer pin requirements maybe?

Possibly, but you are still putting yourself in awkward position(from a wrestling perspective) without positive control(from a wrestling perspective. Not having your arms around your opponent's legs or waist is going to result in it still being a neutral position. So then you are have a scramble to see who can establish control first and get the 2 points. More than that, he is better position to get a hold on one of your legs and belly down... It would be a high risk low percentage maneuver that you might consider pulling off if you were absolutely desperate, but no other reason than that. I mean if the guy snatched a single and you are doing the one leg hop and are pretty sure he's going to get a take down, then sure if you think you can pull it off, fire away... but to quote Kurt Osiander, "Bro if you are in that position you fucked up a long time ago."

[Dr. Gonzo]

In folk I imagine it would be more prominent because of the longer pin requirements maybe?

It is not a technique that I used a lot in my pure wrestling days,
but when we see the modified scissor leg takedown in scholastic wrestling,
the guy being single leg'd gets a whizzer with one of his arms,
and if the opponent gets off at an angle on a high single,
the person getting single leg'd grabs behind the opponents near knee with his other arm (preferably elbow joint to knee joint),
and whips his opponent down, usually hopping his non-grabbed leg behind his opponent's heels.
The guy doing the single lands with his back on the ground with his leg being held elevated at the knee
in what we in the submission arts would call a good kneebar entry opportunity,
but non-submission wrestlers would look at like a funky cradle like back points opp using the whizzer hand and behind the knee hand as well as your non-entangled leg to elevate or further entangle the opponents legs, thus keeping his back on the mat long enough to get the back points (plus the takedown points).
I don't know if it is legal anymore in scholastic wrestling, but it was the go to scissor throw like variation counter to a high single after they made posting your hand on the mat and doing a more classical scissor throw illegal in scholastic wrestling.
But it definitely works when the set up presents itself, and will result in either a scramble back to neutral at worst or takedown points plus some back points when you pip it.

[Michael Tzadok]

It is not a technique that I used a lot in my pure wrestling days,
but when we see the modified scissor leg takedown in scholastic wrestling,
the guy getting single leg'd has a whizzer with one of his hands,
and if the opponent gets off at an angle on a high single,
the person getting single leg'd grabs behind the opponents near knee with his other hand,
and whips his opponent down, usually hopping his non-grabbed leg behind his opponent's heels.
The guy doing the single lands with his back on the ground with his leg being held elevated at the knee
in what we in the submission arts would call a good kneebar entry opportunity,
but non-submission wrestlers would look at like a funky cradle like back points opp using the whizzer hand and behind the knee hand as well as your non-entangled leg to elevate or further entangle the opponents legs, thus keeping his back on the mat long enough to get the back points (plus the takedown points).
I don't know if it is legal anymore in scholastic wrestling, but it was the go to scissor throw like variation counter to a high single after they made posting your hand on the mat and doing a more classical scissor throw illegal in scholastic wrestling.
But it definitely works when the set up presents itself, and will result in either a scramble back to neutral at worst or takedown points plus some back points when you pip it.

That I could see working. It would still be rare as most people wouldn't want to get into that position in the first place.

[Dr. Gonzo]

That I could see working. It would still be rare as most people wouldn't want to get into that position in the first place.

There are other options I prefer as counter-offense to a single leg,
mainly throws and ashi-waza from a classical Judo perspective gi or no gi,
and screwing with his head position relentless and driving my hips forward (not away and not a sprawl) and through him then rotating him down from a more classical wrestling perspective.
And then there is always wrestling funk...
Although when done without regard for wrestling or Judo or specific rulesets, there is nothing wrong with a scissor throw into a leglock attack when and if they angle off on you...

[Raycetpfl]

Consider that 95% of the populace does not have training, this technique will work on the street.

Why would you throw some tricky takedown at an untrained dude? I can hit nearly any throw physics will allow on an untrained person why would I choose this one.?It's a ridiculous premise on top of the rest of the theme of your comment being incorrect.