Improving take downs in grappling.

[goodlun]

Correct, mostly for kids, but you would be surprised what I have to resort to to teach non-athletic adults or teenage noobz. Even reasonably coordinated adults get better if you throw in some games.

I am all in for games frankly. Anything that helps really. Something about games makes things more natural.

[BKR]

I am all in for games frankly. Anything that helps really. Something about games makes things more natural.

It's a game, so performance anxiety goes down, is one thing. Most adults who start Judo also are going to be a long way from technical judo for a while due to mobility issues. And technical judo with a resisting opponent or noobish uke, ugh.

There are exceptions, of course, but the average would be about that...

I watch the kids class before the class I teach. Even a lot of the little kids have coordination/mobility issues. By little I mean under 10 or 11 years old. I can usually pick out the ones who have the mix of genetics and environment that would excel at Judo (or anything else for that matter physical). I compare most of them to my boys, who grew up basically in the woods and did sports from age 4, and there is only one kid in the class who comes close in terms of the ABC's when they were that age.

So before you can really do any Judo, you have to do stuff that looks kinda like Judo, but isn't really. But that is what LTAD is all about anyway, and why competition for young kids isn't really a great idea.

[/lecture_off]

[goodlun]

I am sure I have mentioned it before but the "Gracie bully proof" DVDs are worth it for the Gracie Games section by itself. These are great little games that I think most white belts would benefit from even adults.

[preschol]

[QUOTE=BKR;2927042]Pace and tempo in in BJJ varies. I know this from personal, on the mat experience with skilled BJJ practitioners. And by skilled, I mean brown and black belts.

There are different strategies/tactics one can use in BJJ, just as in Judo, Sambo, Wresltling. Controlling the pace/tempo of a match is a critical skill in competitive grappling. I'd suppose it is in striking too, however, I'd be talking out of my ass if I made any assertions regarding boxing/MT/et al.



I don't take your incorrect statements as disrespect towards BJJ. In fact, your respect for BJJ or lack of respect for BJJ does not matter to me.
Fluidity comes from proper training (technical and physical) over time, and has nothing to do with pace. You can be very fast and fluid, or very slow and fluid in movement, or anything in between. I know this from personal experience at BJJ and Judo, as well as soccer and dancing. You are making common statements from early on in the history of BJJ in North America, back when BJJ/GJJ first got into the spotlight because of the early UFC.

We have moved on from then, quite a bit.

So you see a BJJ black belt (Rayce) and myself (a 3rd degree black belt in Judo and blue belt in BJJ), AGREEING all the damned time about grappling in general, principles, concepts, techniques, plus there is Murphy, a black belt in BJJ (not sure how many stripes) and a 3rd degree black belt in Judo, who is on the same page with us all the time as well. Rayce and Murphy have been around a lot more wrestling than me, but I HAVE wrestled everything from high school state champs to D




I hope everyone can learn from your post: You attacked the substance of my argument, noy me. Well played and I hope others follow suit.

You have not accurately described wrestling. Fighting a "wrestler" at a tournament does not give you enough information to formulate a comprehensive and accyurate view of the art. It is 9:30 and I am going to watch a movie.

While technically incorrect regarding wrestling, your argument was thoughtful, and well organized, I am voting it up.

[jnp]

[QUOTE=preschol;2927090]

Pace and tempo in in BJJ varies. I know this from personal, on the mat experience with skilled BJJ practitioners. And by skilled, I mean brown and black belts.

There are different strategies/tactics one can use in BJJ, just as in Judo, Sambo, Wresltling. Controlling the pace/tempo of a match is a critical skill in competitive grappling. I'd suppose it is in striking too, however, I'd be talking out of my ass if I made any assertions regarding boxing/MT/et al.



I don't take your incorrect statements as disrespect towards BJJ. In fact, your respect for BJJ or lack of respect for BJJ does not matter to me.
Fluidity comes from proper training (technical and physical) over time, and has nothing to do with pace. You can be very fast and fluid, or very slow and fluid in movement, or anything in between. I know this from personal experience at BJJ and Judo, as well as soccer and dancing. You are making common statements from early on in the history of BJJ in North America, back when BJJ/GJJ first got into the spotlight because of the early UFC.

We have moved on from then, quite a bit.

So you see a BJJ black belt (Rayce) and myself (a 3rd degree black belt in Judo and blue belt in BJJ), AGREEING all the damned time about grappling in general, principles, concepts, techniques, plus there is Murphy, a black belt in BJJ (not sure how many stripes) and a 3rd degree black belt in Judo, who is on the same page with us all the time as well. Rayce and Murphy have been around a lot more wrestling than me, but I HAVE wrestled everything from high school state champs to D




I hope everyone can learn from your post: You attacked the substance of my argument, noy me. Well played and I hope others follow suit.

You have not accurately described wrestling. Fighting a "wrestler" at a tournament does not give you enough information to formulate a comprehensive and accyurate view of the art. It is 9:30 and I am going to watch a movie.

While technically incorrect regarding wrestling, your argument was thoughtful, and well organized, I am voting it up.

Hi. I started wrestling in 1984. I wrestled competitively for 7 years. I started BJJ in 2001. I am still training BJJ and occasionally help out coaching wrestling. These are my qualifications.

I do not agree with your statement about wrestling. I also believe BKR is qualified to make an informed statement regarding wrestling. I have seen slow wrestling matches in the Olympics and other world level competitions. I have seen explosive BJJ matches at all levels. Go watch some of the ADCC trials and tell me that's not an explosive match.

I think you should state your rank and how many years you've been training because you sound an awful lot like a typical blue belt who thinks he knows everything after 3 to 4 years of training. Experience does not always make a person right, but you are arguing with men who have decades of grappling experience.

[BackFistMonkey]

I hope everyone can learn from your post: You attacked the substance of my argument, noy me. Well played and I hope others follow suit.

You have not accurately described wrestling. Fighting a "wrestler" at a tournament does not give you enough information to formulate a comprehensive and accyurate view of the art. It is 9:30 and I am going to watch a movie. While technically incorrect regarding wrestling, your argument was thoughtful, and well organized, I am voting it up.

You are an idiot. Please learn how use the quote function and stop attempting to ingratiate yourself to the forum, it is painfully obvious when you attempt to.
... and before you cry about being attacked ... I have been doing nothing but describing your behavior. The people with 20+ years of grappling have been shutting down your claims and your assumptions from positions of ignorance.

Just like it is fair to call me an asshole or rude... it is fair to call you an idiot. I am not saying you are a idiot and thus wrong. I am saying you are wrong and keep doubling down like an idiot. One is a personal attack the other is stating a fact.

[BKR]

[QUOTE=preschol;2927090]

Pace and tempo in in BJJ varies. I know this from personal, on the mat experience with skilled BJJ practitioners. And by skilled, I mean brown and black belts.

There are different strategies/tactics one can use in BJJ, just as in Judo, Sambo, Wresltling. Controlling the pace/tempo of a match is a critical skill in competitive grappling. I'd suppose it is in striking too, however, I'd be talking out of my ass if I made any assertions regarding boxing/MT/et al.



I don't take your incorrect statements as disrespect towards BJJ. In fact, your respect for BJJ or lack of respect for BJJ does not matter to me.
Fluidity comes from proper training (technical and physical) over time, and has nothing to do with pace. You can be very fast and fluid, or very slow and fluid in movement, or anything in between. I know this from personal experience at BJJ and Judo, as well as soccer and dancing. You are making common statements from early on in the history of BJJ in North America, back when BJJ/GJJ first got into the spotlight because of the early UFC.

We have moved on from then, quite a bit.

So you see a BJJ black belt (Rayce) and myself (a 3rd degree black belt in Judo and blue belt in BJJ), AGREEING all the damned time about grappling in general, principles, concepts, techniques, plus there is Murphy, a black belt in BJJ (not sure how many stripes) and a 3rd degree black belt in Judo, who is on the same page with us all the time as well. Rayce and Murphy have been around a lot more wrestling than me, but I HAVE wrestled everything from high school state champs to D




I hope everyone can learn from your post: You attacked the substance of my argument, noy me. Well played and I hope others follow suit.

You have not accurately described wrestling. Fighting a "wrestler" at a tournament does not give you enough information to formulate a comprehensive and accyurate view of the art. It is 9:30 and I am going to watch a movie.

While technically incorrect regarding wrestling, your argument was thoughtful, and well organized, I am voting it up.

Well, if you would use the quote function properly I could properly respond, so I have not idea what my technically incorrect statement regarding wrestling is/was.

I use wrestling/grappling interchangeably. Judo, BJJ, Sambo, (the list goes on and on) are all forms of wrestling/grappling.

The fundamentals of specific forms of wrestling/grappling are the same. I'd never claim to be a American folkstyle, Freestyle/Olympic, or Greco-Roman expert, but it's all wrasslin in the end, jacket, no jacket, or oiled up and wearing tight leather pants in the grass like they do in Turkey.

[preschol]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n05PdHl2PJM

As much as I hate to criticize a fellow Renzo, there are some problems with this takedown. You will get this technique on most people that do not have a lot of takedown/wrestling experience, but not someone who knows how to square up properly.

Let me show you another option.

This applies both to Gi and no Gi.

Whether you have the collar, as in this drill or a Right hand tie up/clinch around the neck the key is moving your opponent.

So, you have control and you step to your left. When you do so, your opponent will step their left leg forwards towards you, the right leg will step away and they will do something called squaring up. This is all basic wrestling 101.

If you don't square up you will be vulnerable to an inside single, outside single turning the corner, outside double or the takedown shown here in the video. These are all takedowns that will have a very high success rate if you do not square up.

So, your opponent squares up and none of the takedowns we just laid out will have a high rate of success. Here is a better alternative.

When you have the grip or wrestling tie up on the right side, step to your left, just as you see in the video.

Your opponent will turn and square up. Thus , none of the attacks on his right leg will work. The right leg will have stepped back. However. you are going to attack his left leg.

When he steps, his weight will be heavy on his left leg. As such, it will be perfect for an inside single.

So, you turn him, he steps with his left leg towards you, and you shift levels and hit that inside single on his left leg. I use a right leg forward stance to decrease the distance I have to travel in order to get a deep shot. Always try and drive through him, and that way you can defeat the sprawl. There are a number of grips you can use on his left leg, lets look at one. Your right arm will be wrapped tightly around his leg. Your left hand will come down and pull his left leg off the ground and towards you.

There are many options, like a snatch with a stepp back, but for now stick with the traditional deep single.

Then, use your head as a lever torqueing his body while you pull his leg in the opposite direction using your left hand (which is lower on the leg, down towards the ankle).

It is very important to keep your head on the inside. If not you are going to get a nasty cross face.

There are times when the head can be on the outside, if you are shooting a single and turning the corner, but not here.

Make sure you stay tight at all times. He needs to create space to escape. He will so do by pushing your head away and setting his wizzer.

Don't let him do this or you will lose the takedown.

Make sure you shift levels, and do not airplane your shot.

Your head should be in deep, the right side pressed against his hip.

Be mindful of the positional scramble that happens during the takedown. You want to land in side control, not in his guard.

[BKR]

[QUOTE=jnp;2927624]

Hi. I started wrestling in 1984. I wrestled competitively for 7 years. I started BJJ in 2001. I am still training BJJ and occasionally help out coaching wrestling. These are my qualifications.

I do not agree with your statement about wrestling. I also believe BKR is qualified to make an informed statement regarding wrestling. I have seen slow wrestling matches in the Olympics and other world level competitions. I have seen explosive BJJ matches at all levels. Go watch some of the ADCC trials and tell me that's not an explosive match.

I think you should state your rank and how many years you've been training because you sound an awful lot like a typical blue belt who thinks he knows everything after 3 to 4 years of training. Experience does not always make a person right, but you are arguing with men who have decades of grappling experience.

Whoa, message from the crypt! Nice to see you post again for sure.

[Raycetpfl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n05PdHl2PJM

As much as I hate to criticize a fellow Renzo, there are some problems with this takedown. You will get this technique on most people that do not have a lot of takedown/wrestling experience, but not someone who knows how to square up properly.

Let me show you another option.

This applies both to Gi and no Gi.

Whether you have the collar, as in this drill or a Right hand tie up/clinch around the neck the key is moving your opponent.

So, you have control and you step to your left. When you do so, your opponent will step their left leg forwards towards you, the right leg will step away and they will do something called squaring up. This is all basic wrestling 101.

If you don't square up you will be vulnerable to an inside single, outside single turning the corner, outside double or the takedown shown here in the video. These are all takedowns that will have a very high success rate if you do not square up.

So, your opponent squares up and none of the takedowns we just laid out will have a high rate of success. Here is a better alternative.

When you have the grip or wrestling tie up on the right side, step to your left, just as you see in the video.

Your opponent will turn and square up. Thus , none of the attacks on his right leg will work. The right leg will have stepped back. However. you are going to attack his left leg.

When he steps, his weight will be heavy on his left leg. As such, it will be perfect for an inside single.

So, you turn him, he steps with his left leg towards you, and you shift levels and hit that inside single on his left leg. I use a right leg forward stance to decrease the distance I have to travel in order to get a deep shot. Always try and drive through him, and that way you can defeat the sprawl. There are a number of grips you can use on his left leg, lets look at one. Your right arm will be wrapped tightly around his leg. Your left hand will come down and pull his left leg off the ground and towards you.

There are many options, like a snatch with a stepp back, but for now stick with the traditional deep single.

Then, use your head as a lever torqueing his body while you pull his leg in the opposite direction using your left hand (which is lower on the leg, down towards the ankle).

It is very important to keep your head on the inside. If not you are going to get a nasty cross face.

There are times when the head can be on the outside, if you are shooting a single and turning the corner, but not here.

Make sure you stay tight at all times. He needs to create space to escape. He will so do by pushing your head away and setting his wizzer.

Don't let him do this or you will lose the takedown.

Make sure you shift levels, and do not airplane your shot.

Your head should be in deep, the right side pressed against his hip.

Be mindful of the positional scramble that happens during the takedown. You want to land in side control, not in his guard.

WTF Are you talking about you air theif?
1. It's almost a 1/2 hour of a seminar From a Renzo Blackbelt and last years Judo Olympic Silver Medalist. No one knows what technique you talking about. He teaches a lot in this video.

2. You should not give advice in the technique forums. You're horrible at grappling. Name dropping will not change that.

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n05PdHl2PJM

As much as I hate to criticize a fellow Renzo, there are some problems with this takedown. You will get this technique on most people that do not have a lot of takedown/wrestling experience, but not someone who knows how to square up properly.

Let me show you another option.

This applies both to Gi and no Gi.

Whether you have the collar, as in this drill or a Right hand tie up/clinch around the neck the key is moving your opponent.

So, you have control and you step to your left. When you do so, your opponent will step their left leg forwards towards you, the right leg will step away and they will do something called squaring up. This is all basic wrestling 101.

If you don't square up you will be vulnerable to an inside single, outside single turning the corner, outside double or the takedown shown here in the video. These are all takedowns that will have a very high success rate if you do not square up.

So, your opponent squares up and none of the takedowns we just laid out will have a high rate of success. Here is a better alternative.

When you have the grip or wrestling tie up on the right side, step to your left, just as you see in the video.

Your opponent will turn and square up. Thus , none of the attacks on his right leg will work. The right leg will have stepped back. However. you are going to attack his left leg.

When he steps, his weight will be heavy on his left leg. As such, it will be perfect for an inside single.

So, you turn him, he steps with his left leg towards you, and you shift levels and hit that inside single on his left leg. I use a right leg forward stance to decrease the distance I have to travel in order to get a deep shot. Always try and drive through him, and that way you can defeat the sprawl. There are a number of grips you can use on his left leg, lets look at one. Your right arm will be wrapped tightly around his leg. Your left hand will come down and pull his left leg off the ground and towards you.

There are many options, like a snatch with a stepp back, but for now stick with the traditional deep single.

Then, use your head as a lever torqueing his body while you pull his leg in the opposite direction using your left hand (which is lower on the leg, down towards the ankle).

It is very important to keep your head on the inside. If not you are going to get a nasty cross face.

There are times when the head can be on the outside, if you are shooting a single and turning the corner, but not here.

Make sure you stay tight at all times. He needs to create space to escape. He will so do by pushing your head away and setting his wizzer.

Don't let him do this or you will lose the takedown.

Make sure you shift levels, and do not airplane your shot.

Your head should be in deep, the right side pressed against his hip.

Be mindful of the positional scramble that happens during the takedown. You want to land in side control, not in his guard.

While I am never afraid to critique anybody or any technique to my students if I feel that hearing the criticism will benefit their own practice and understanding,

it takes a lot of boldness and confidence in one's own understanding to publicly critique an Olympic medalist level Judoka who is also a Renzo Gracie Jiu-Jitsu black belt demonstrating take down options for Jiu-Jitsu (or Judo) while wearing a Gi.

Keep in mind, they were doing this training in a Gi uniform, and wrestling in a jacket, where there is both jacket material and pant material to grab does materially change the opportunities, defenses, and sometimes even the range differentials in grappling compared to wrestling with no material to grab.

Wrestlers who have not trained extensively in jacket wrestling takedowns can be surprised at the variable differences the uniform makes.

[preschol]

[QUOTE=WFMurphyPhD;2927652]While I am never afraid to critique anybody or any technique to my students if I feel that hearing the criticism will benefit their own practice and understanding,

it takes a lot of boldness and confidence in one's own understanding to publicly critique an Olympic level Judoka who is also a Renzo Gracie Jiu

I have done a good chunk of Judo. I trained with an Olympic (England) alternate. You are correct that the jacket changes a lot of things.

Lets address a problem that seems to pop up regularly: It is the classic "appeal to authority fallacy."

Someone is an expert (Black Belt) and as such whatever they say is automatically correct.

Doing so enables you to leapfrog the substance and reject it out of hand...even though it is correct.

First, setting up basic single leg attacks is wrestling 101. These fundamentals must be mastered. The technique here is an addition to those fundamentals. The technique was the first on taught.

I could say that I learned this technique from a D1 all America wrestler....or someone who is far less qualified.

Why? Because these are basic techniques that must be masterd. Theyu are high percentage techniques against other wrestlers. The technique shownis a low percentage technique.

What I like about it is, it is an alternative to singles, doubles, and as such can surprise someone. However, that is only if the person does not square up.

If they square up....and anyone with a tiny bit of wrestling will do so, you will not get the technique. All the belts in the world do not affect that fact.

Also, Judo is an absolutely fantastic art. However, it is notoriously difficult for great Judoka to transition to a successful MMA career. Now for self defense, especially if you live somewhere cold, Judo is excellent. People wear jackets and more clothes in general. Without clothing, however, Judo loses many of its advantages.

The 240 lb Olympic alternate...I would pull guard on him if I were wearing a Gi. Gi less was different: I would take him down 2 out of 3 times.

[preschol]

WF...here is another example: I trained with Mike Altman, who was ranked number 2 in the world in San Shou, behind his nemesis Cung Lee.

Here is a bit about Mike....also a BJJ Brown: http://www.txmma.com/txmma-technique...n-fu-dogs-mma/

San show uses the flying scissors takedown. It super cool looking and will work on someone unless they square up.

It won't work on a wrestler because a wrestler will square up.

How is that fact refuted just because of Mikes' credentials?

[preschol]

WTF Are you talking about you air theif?
1. It's almost a 1/2 hour of a seminar From a Renzo Blackbelt and last years Judo Olympic Silver Medalist. No one knows what technique you talking about. He teaches a lot in this video.

2. You should not give advice in the technique forums. You're horrible at grappling. Name dropping will not change that.

It is the first technique.

Are you saying that because someone is a BB that they are automatically correct? Really?

Why don't you tell me how the technique I laid out will not work. I am just a little old Blue Belt, what can I know? Right?

Explain how squaring up works, or doesn't work.

How will squaring up defend against the technique in the video? What is the proper defense?

How do you PROPERLY execute a single leg? What does shifting levels mean, and why is it important?

What role does the sprawl have in all of this?

Explain. Technically. What is wrong with my advice. No personal attacks, the mean nothing. Teach me some technique.

[Raycetpfl]

I have done a good chunk of Judo. I trained with an Olympic (England) alternate. You are correct that the jacket changes a lot of things........

What a cool story! I hope no one refutes your claim. ;-)

The 240 lb Olympic alternate...I would pull guard on him if I were wearing a Gi.Gi less was different: I would take him down 2 out of 3 times.

Oh... looks like you did by the end of the comment. There was also this from the beginning of the thread.

I only have a moderate amount of experience with Judo,