Boxing V Muay Thai (hands only)

[WhiteShark]

I've been thinking about this for a while and some of the differences started to come up in the horrible Vertical V Horizontal fist thread. Without further ado:

Do you think directly comparing MT hand techniques with Boxing techniques is fair or even a good idea?

I'm starting to think it is not. There just seem to be too many different nuances to compare them. A common thing that I hear (read) is that MT is a good striking art but boxing has better hands. I don't think that boxing actually has better hands (for Muay Thai). The differences in the clinch alone invalidate some of boxing's strategies. Part of the problem is that the more rules are restricted and the more MT becomes kick boxing the more boxing works just fine. If you can't use elbows to the head and you can't throw from the clinch or knee the head then boxing techniques especially defense start to make more sense.

One good example is bobbing and weaving. When knees to the head are allowed this is a terrible idea. Sometimes it's not a good idea even when they aren't allowed. Often less experienced fighters lean at the waist when bobbing and weaving. This leaves them open for knees to the body and being pulled off balance in the clinch.

So are the individual strikes from boxing the only part that is comparable to Muay Thai? I think even the striking techniques require enough adapting that a direct comparison isn't fair. A good cross in boxing requires a lot of weight transfer to the front leg and ideally a flat front foot and a lifted turned-out rear heel. Freeze frame that position and think of the many kicking counters from there. If you can't use the full footwork and body movement of Boxing You start to see why MT punches look like boxing arm-only punches.

[Draven]

[UpaLumpa]

You know, I know dick about striking but being literate realize your post is pretty much entirely unrelated to the orignal post.

[NoMan]

Interesting points. If I may ask a question about the strategy of Thai in-fighting and how that changes the hands approach to boxing strikes, particularly infighting. In boxing, the strategy is to move side-to-side, ("short rhythm"), use hooks and uppercuts either in a double-up fashion or a high/low combination, and cut-off the ring from the opponent by using one-arm through if necessary, or regular mirror footwork. (*)

What would the optimal Muay Thai strategy be? If you consider hands, Muay Thai seems to only rarely throw hooks and uppercuts, and I imagine the clinch would follow long before any good inside boxing occurs.

(* Depending upon the boxing circuit. Some allow blows if only one-arm is through and the boxer is aggressively punching. In others, this will get a foul.)

[Torakaka]

I pretty much agree, though I think bobbing and weaving still has utility in muay thai, you just have to be more careful about when and how you do it. Really, every action you do has some sort of potential counter attack.

[Draven]

You know, I know dick about striking but being literate realize your post is pretty much entirely unrelated to the orignal post.

Put simply my point is that MT fighters box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmdQD...&search=anuwat

[UpaLumpa]

Put simply, you're illiterate.

[Shaolinz]

I tend to agree with you WhiteShark. They are two different styles for a reason. However, boxing will always be the "better" hands art because they only use their hands. However, it is a HANDS ONLY art. Its not worried about elbows (unless thrown illegally), knees, legs or anything else. Its not even concerned with anything under your belt/belly button as a striking surface.

Even Kat has stated a couple times in various threads, "I was boxing..." when people started critizing openings that would have been taken advantage of in a MT setting.

There is common ground between the two arts but they are also VERY different. The stance differences and weight distribution differences alone should be atleast a hint that they may have different goals in mind.

That being said I don't ever claim to tell boxers how to box because... I'm not a boxer. The same should be said for boxers trying to tell Muay Thai guys how to do what they do. Its always good to share information and look at something in a different light but some things are flat out dangerous when there is a legal elbow, knee waiting to land or a very deadly clinch that isn't going to get immediately broken up by a ref.

What would the optimal Muay Thai strategy be? If you consider hands, Muay Thai seems to only rarely throw hooks and uppercuts, and I imagine the clinch would follow long before any good inside boxing occurs.

I throw hooks alot but I do believe your more or less correct. I usually use the hook to transition into a clinch.

[WhiteShark]

Interesting points. If I may ask a question about the strategy of Thai in-fighting and how that changes the hands approach to boxing strikes, particularly infighting. In boxing, the strategy is to move side-to-side, ("short rhythm"), use hooks and uppercuts either in a double-up fashion or a high/low combination, and cut-off the ring from the opponent by using one-arm through if necessary, or regular mirror footwork. (*)

What would the optimal Muay Thai strategy be? If you consider hands, Muay Thai seems to only rarely throw hooks and uppercuts, and I imagine the clinch would follow long before any good inside boxing occurs.

(* Depending upon the boxing circuit. Some allow blows if only one-arm is through and the boxer is aggressively punching. In others, this will get a foul.)

Good insight.
My coach used to make me spend 3 rounds at the end of every class doing boxing movement drills in the ring because my Muay Thai "Marching" was too rigid. So believe me when I say I know what you mean about the side to side movement and cutting off the ring. This was a direct result of losing a fight to a guy that I kneed so hard he was wouldn't give me a rematch under Thai rules. He basically just stung me and ran away for the second 2 rounds. "Marching" around after someone like frankenstien won't get you very far if they just backpedal and circle the ring...

So what the hell does that mean? It means you're right. Once you catch someone with largely boxing footwork. I think you need to switch it up to MT infighting and Clinch game. I often throw a hard hook followed by a sloppy hook just to enter the clinch. Another thing that works against boxers is to really force them to move their head with a stiff jab. This can make them start moving right into knees. The biggest difference is that clinching in Muay Thai will get you kneed where clinching in boxing will get you a break... more later.

[new2bjj]

I'm going with the Boxing hands being better by sheer weight of attrition. Unlike some sports, where it's still fun if you suck, such as Basketball, soccer, etc, boxing is no fun if you have slow hands. you can get aorund having slow hands in MT, because you have other weapons. I saw an old Danny Steele fight and his record was 27-2-1, with no knockouts. He just keptl eg kicking the guy, and that worked for him for quite awhile. Now some boxers can get away with the punch and clinch, but they wont have long carreers, as they are dull to watch. I don't believe it is just training the hands alone. It would be nice, if through sheer force of will, you could make your hands fast, but alot of times it is talent. Fast punchers chew up slow punchers, and they leave, unless they are really toough and stupid, and become the perrennial oppponent, that tunes up other fighters. I'm not saying that boxers are better fighters, just better punchers.

[Shaolinz]

I'm going with the Boxing hands being better by sheer weight of attrition. Unlike some sports, where it's still fun if you suck, such as Basketball, soccer, etc, boxing is no fun if you have slow hands. you can get aorund having slow hands in MT, because you have other weapons. I saw an old Danny Steele fight and his record was 27-2-1, with no knockouts. He just keptl eg kicking the guy, and that worked for him for quite awhile. Now some boxers can get away with the punch and clinch, but they wont have long carreers, as they are dull to watch. I don't believe it is just training the hands alone. It would be nice, if through sheer force of will, you could make your hands fast, but alot of times it is talent. Fast punchers chew up slow punchers, and they leave, unless they are really toough and stupid, and become the perrennial oppponent, that tunes up other fighters. I'm not saying that boxers are better fighters, just better punchers.

I may not understand White's initial point. However, if I do then you seem to have missed it. No one would question who is the better boxer. A boxer is the better boxer. In boxing terms, the boxer has the better hands. White's point (if I understood correctly) was that the rules alone are too different to compare the hands aspect of each. I guess the ultimate question would be could a boxer hold his own in a Thai ring or would the rules alone (for arguement sake say he knows how to atleast check a leg kick) force him to change from his usual boxing style. Would he be able to apply the same techniques boxing insists are the correct way to strike in that situation? My initial idea is, no he would not. There would have to be things he would have to change to deal with the kicks, elbows, knees and actual clinching. The changes he would have to make (if you think there are any) are what need to be kept in mind when a boxer critiques a MT guy.

[Anna Kovacs]

I think you can get away with a lot more bob and weave stuff in muay thai then people commonly think. I go mike tyson on people in muay thai sparring all the time, When you're watching in third person it's easy to sit back and say "oh, you could just knee or kick them there" but it seems to me that you can get away with it much more often then not. Ideally You're slipping punches that they're throwing because they expect to be hitting you with them, people dont usually punch and knee at the same time.

The only times i've really had problems is sparring with someone way out of my league(marvin perry) who could hold his kicks like half cocked till I finished my slip and then he'd bring them down on top of me.

It didnt help that my left eye was swollen completely shut from my MMA fight the night before so I couldnt really see his leg on that side anyways.

I think it needs to be mitigated somewhat for a muay thai setting, it makes bending at the waist or getting to deep a lot more dangerous but you can still get away with that kind of stuff in moderation if you keep your hips under you like you really should be doing anyways. (Of course people don't always do what they should be doing, myself included.)

[Anna Kovacs]

Honestly i think a lot of muay thai people try and take little jabs at boxing and to some degree make excuses for their usually at least somewhat inferior hand work. I don't think the two have to be nearly as differant as people try and make them out to be, I tend to play both pretty similair in sparring as far as stance and movement goes, only being more careful with really deep slipping muay thai.

[new2bjj]

No, shaolinz, I mean boxers have a better variety of hand strikes, angles and pure punching power. Having seen En Fairtex get school by a western Boxer,in San Francisco, while he schools every white guy wanna be Muay Thai guy at strike force, would be enough. Knowing boxers that have sparred with MT guys and said- those kicks hurt- ie, they let them kick while they boxed. I've been watching tons of Mauy Thai lately, which I enjoy, but I see few fighters, except Dekkers and Coban, who have outstanding punching. Their punching games seems to be 1-2 kick 1 kick 1-2 kick., grab, then knee. The clinch in these Lumpini matchs seems to be complicitory- almost a let's grab each other and see who can take more punishment. That's my main problem with MT, is that it is not always smart fighting- hit without getting hit- but more like, lets just blast each other and see who falls first. Now don't get me wrong, i like watching them blast each other, but I don't see it as a smart thing to do.

[Shaolinz]

but I see few fighters, except Dekkers and Coban, who have outstanding punching. Their punching games seems to be 1-2 kick 1 kick 1-2 kick., grab, then knee.

Alot of MT people do tend to ignore punching to atleast some degree. I'm guilty of it. I usually tend to use punchs to set up a knee or kick or like I said before I use hooks generally to get a clinch. I've even heard MT guys tell me when I ask about the mechanics of a punch, "MT generally is weak in punching, don't worry about it just throw the punch". Thankfully they aren't my instructors.