February is "Karate Rules" Month

[Mcdaddy]

Also George St Pierre

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R99JaVtviqI

[kolsyrade]

Assuerio Silva
Seiwakai (kyokushin offshot) fighter who made a name in Chute Boxe, got into MMA fought in ufc and became HW king of pancrase.
YouTube - Seiwakai en la UFC - Assuerio Silva

Kestutis "Tiger" Arbocius
Shidokan karate (kyokushin offshot)
former HW king of Pancrase
(sorry, cant find any video online)

[kolsyrade]

Shonie Carter
Shidokan karate(kyokushin offshot) +BJJ fighter.
Not entirely unknown from UFC and ultimate fighter.

YouTube - Shidokan Team USA 2005 Fight 8

[albiceleste]

Don't forget those who use it to beat the living tar out of BJ Penn.

I loved BJ's defensive strategy - blocking GSPs fists with his head. Highly unorthodox.....

Kyokushin is no joke.

[Vieux Normand]

Karate was good. It got MCdojoed. Every fella who puts on a gi and said `i do/teach karate` just because he felt like doing so was tolerated. That was the biggest mistake. Nobody tolerates a fella roling around a bit an declaring he is a bjj variation of some sort.

Some total idiot started a JMA-forum thread on just this phenomenon, calling it something like "No, you do not fucking 'do Karate'". Some boxing gyms may offer boxercise for non-fighters, but they don't call it "boxing". "Tae Bo", a series of exercises based on some kind of kickboxing, was NOT called kickboxing. Nobody who does just a few breakfalls, a couple of times a week, would call himself a Judoka. A few shrimps on the floor--and nothing else--does not make a person a BJJ practitioner.

Why, then, did places where one does no more than a few basics in the air, followed by a few kata--all of this maybe twice a week--continue to claim that this constituted "Karate" rather than something like "krottercise"?

Karate is, by definition, a method of FIGHTING. Its practitioners cannot truly be tested except by actually FIGHTING.

The tragedy isn't that Karate got watered down. The tragedy is that the watered-down shit that resulted continued to be called "Karate". This is what we call 'false advertising'.

Karate is recovering (but probably never completely will) from the inepts who call themselves karateka masters without ever being bruised.
So we called BS.
Now we see more a focus on the good sides of karate. This is good for everyone. Karate is going back to its roots, keeping its basics and finallyYYYYYYYYY adopting some new training tools and ideas. We are going back to the tradition. Learning how to fight.:waoya

Amen.

[kolsyrade]

Has noone mentioned Semmy?

Semmy Schilt.
Ashihara karate,also associated to seidokaikan karate (Both kyokushin offshots)
Former kudo champion, former king of pancrase, former pride and UFC fighter.
4 time running k-1 kickboxing champion

YouTube - Semmy Schilt HL by Fryeguy
(HL made before he left MMA to go into K-1)

Here is one from K-1, but with out sound due to youtube chickening out and removing it.
YouTube - K-1 Semmy Schilt HL video

[Mcdaddy]

Also ANdy Hug beating Stan the Man

YouTube - Kyokushin vs Muay thai

[Mcdaddy]

A best of Kyokushin

YouTube - Kyokushin Karate- best fighters, best moments

[juszczec]

I think karate is most useful when its looked at as a collection of physical principals that must be adapted (and in some cases, discarded) in order to help you take someone apart.

I really, really think that's what it started out as.

It was codified in an effort to make it fit in with the preferred Japanese way of organizing MA training, But it was a crappy fit.

At some point, someone applied the TKD marketing approach to it and here we are.

[Vieux Normand]

I think karate is most useful when its looked at as a collection of physical principals that must be adapted (and in some cases, discarded) in order to help you take someone apart.

I might write "a system of principles and techniques that must be adapted" et cetera, but--that minor difference aside--the above is a very defensible definition. Of course, a lot of MAs can also be defined using this very definition (worded either your way or mine).

If the principles and techniques are adapted or discarded based on their efficacy when tested in actual fighting, then one has a martial art. Otherwise, it's exercise (nothing wrong with that, if that's all one wants...but those who teach and practise it should be honest and give it a name other than one already claimed by a martial art).

[FickleFingerOfFate]

Martial Art = Karate-do

Exercise routine = Karate-don't.











That is all.

[juszczec]

I might write "a system of principles and techniques that must be adapted" et cetera, but--that minor difference aside--the above is a very defensible definition.

I think we've got the same idea.

The important concept is karate as a bunch of guidelines NOT a bunch of hard and fast rules.

Of course, a lot of MAs can also be defined using this very definition (worded either your way or mine).

And I think alot of bullshit could be avoided if one of our definitions were used.

But people like answers, do this do that do the other thing, as opposed to learning how to solve their own problems.

If the principles and techniques are adapted or discarded based on their efficacy when tested in actual fighting, then one has a martial art. Otherwise, it's exercise (nothing wrong with that, if that's all one wants...but those who teach and practise it should be honest and give it a name other than one already claimed by a martial art).

Remember how I said people like being given answers? How much do you want to bet that many of the exercise karate people who think they are teaching people how to fight have never ever ever taken a moment to ask themselves "Wait a minute, what if Sensei wasn't 100% correct?"

Mark

[Vieux Normand]

How much do you want to bet that many of the exercise karate people who think they are teaching people how to fight have never ever ever taken a moment to ask themselves "Wait a minute, what if Sensei wasn't 100% correct?"

Betting on that would require thinking about it. Any actual Karate practitioner doing that would have to decide whether to laugh or cry...

...and then decide what to do about it.

[TheRuss]

...and then decide what to do about it.

More broadly, that really sums up the issue looming over this thread.

It can be framed in terms of general perception.
The vast majority of people don't see the distinction between karate that produces great fighters and krottercise (or the various other "karate" that are preoccupied with interpretive dance, "spiritual development", etc.).
Nobody gets confused about boxing vs. boxercise*.
Nobody can't tell the difference between "pro wrasslin" and wrestling**.
And nobody confuses the purpose of kickboxing with, say, breakdancing***.
So in this case, the question is "What should be done about the perception?"

Alternately, it can be framed in terms of the schools themselves. What should be done about schools that claim to "do Karate" but don't produce competent fighters? I'd rather not phrase it like that, because 1) if someone enjoys krottercise, they should stick with it (as long as they're not lying to themselves about what they're learning) and 2) the most appealing answers are all variations on dojo storming.

But in any case, the fundamental question is that of what to do about it.

Normally I'd draw hope from the wave of karate practitioners who have been excelling in MMA competition, but in the case of perception, I worry that they may actually exacerbate the problem.

"My sensei says that karate isn't about fighting, but man, GSP does karate and he kicks all sorts of ass. I bet sensei's just being philosophical about it. I'll be a killing machine in no time."

Scary, no?

Anyways, I suppose that we could buy some ad time...

Visual: Man doing a "backstroke" poolside, then cut to him drowning.
VOICEOVER: If you never get in the water, you'll never be able to swim.

Visual: Man making a "steering motion" with a dinner plate, then cut to his car backing over his garbage can.
VOICEOVER:If you never get behind the wheel, you'll never be able to drive.

Visual: Man doing pretty forms, then cut to him getting pummeled in an alley.
VOICEOVER: And if you're not attacking and being attacked, you'll never be able to defend yourself.

VOICEOVER: Brought to you by the Friends Of Matt Thornton.

* Okay, almost nobody.
** Okay, YouTube - It's Still Real To Me Dammit.
*** Pretend I put a link to the video of a little kid getting kicked in the head by a breakdancer here.

[blugularis]

salute to Mas Oyama

In the spirit of BS, I'll out-and-out say my karate was C- at best. If indeed I ever do become some sort of a badass, Shorin Ryu will have little to nothing to do with it.

I could say the same about Wado, but it started me on the path, and I landed in the Oyama schools, learning karate is one thing, but the Oyama schools taught me, to fight, and fight, and fight, and then fight some more, etc.