Response from Jiu-jitsu.net: APS Billing Issue

[Aranha]

<img src="http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/logosmall.gif" align=left><i>Hello all, This is Gene Simco.

I am founder of JIU-JITSU.NET, but do not run the online store or ship any orders.

This was brought to my attention from one of my forum members.

I am told by the company who does the processing that the customer is given a review copy of the order before they finish the purchase, stating that they signed up for this, then they are emailed in an email confirmation, then the shippers send a notice about the eNewsletter (it also includes access to more techniques on the site and discounts that no one else gets) on their printed Receipt. Then, Before they are charged for this, the billing company is supposed to send a letter notifying them?

He might not have known because the order was done in someone else's name?

Not sure - I just called APS about this to see if they had sent a letter to this individual, but his name isn';t on file - in which case, it is very likely that someone else ordered it and didn't tell him ...

In any event - I need you to email me at gene@jiu-jitsu.net and get me the order information - Who's name, Order number if you have it, address.

I want ot make sure the company is doing their job.

Also - This is the email I sent you as soon as I found out about it.

Please email me and I will personally see to it that it gets resolved.

Email:

Hello Christian,

It has come to my attention that there was a misunderstanding. I don't do any of the order processing or charges, etc ... But I was informed that you were notified about the eNewsletter both by email and regular mail. If you weren't, I agree with you that the company did something wrong and would like to fix this for you.
You see, although I do not do any of the site's online store business or shipping, some of my products are sold on the site exclusively. It is a bit bigger now than it used to be, so I can't control everything that happens and need to outsource some work, but my name is still on the product and want to stand behind it. On a side note, I am actually going to stop wholesaling the Master Text because of some customer service complaints I've had regarding the retailers selling it.
I will PERSONALLY call aps for you and see what I can do about getting the charges reversed and then I want you to email me back with your address so I can send you a copy of a new DVD I just finished.

I found out about this because someone posted a link to bullshido.com. In return for my attention to this matter, I'd like to ask you if you'd post this note for me and your feelings about this matter as I'm resolving it.

Thanks for your patronage and support,
Gene Simco</i>

[The Wastrel]

Ah, Mr. Simco beat me to posting his message. This order definitely should have been done in my name, as it is my checking account from which the funds are being withdrawn. There appear to be all sorts of missing data points that might explain the confusion. Here also is my response to Mr. Simco's message:

I checked my history and coudn't find any email pertaining to being charged for the newsletter.

Frankly, such incaution was due to the fact that I was simply not on-guard for that kind of practice because I had purchased materials through jiujitsu.net before and regarded you as an honest retailer.

I can understand what it's like when an operation grows beyond the personal oversight of its headman, and I wish you continued success.

You really shouldn't feel obligated to send me anything. I am perfectly satisfied only to have a refund; I am entitled to no more than that.

XXXXX is the name on the credit card being charged, and this is the address to which the
newsletter is being sent. If that is not reflected in records, it would seem that the confusion deepens.

I will immediately update the news section of Bullshido.com with your note. Thank you for your personal attention.

[blankslate]

I was just on the phone Monday night with Citibank and the APS company trying to get this straightened out. I found a 9.99 charge on my VISA.


The APS lady wanted my credit card number which I refused to give but later nicely told me about a 'jiu-jitsu school' that they worked with. I put two and two together and realized that I must have missed some small print somewhere. it was probably tied to my ordering the Master Text and Basics package recently. Excellent books by the way, but I was personally hurt that Mr. Simco would pull something like this.


I did not appreciate this and would like my charge reversed also. Back to the drawing board.

In a related issue, I also had to fight to have two charges reversed on my VISA to some XXX sites..still worried as to how those two originated but have been corrected at this point.

Thanks for posting this Wastrel.

[blankslate]

Hmm...

Easy now. Benefit of the doubt and all tha...

[The Wastrel]

Interesting twist: the billing company, APS, is telling Mr. Simco that they have no record of this transaction in my name, but yesterday when I called them they looked it up and found it under my name.

What's going on?

[blankslate]

Emboldened by this post, I called APS again today and they cannot find me in their records. They claim to only bill for Martial Art, Karate and Jiu Jitsu schools and LA Weight Loss.

I did give them the first eight digits of my VISA this time but they still can find no record of my name in their system.

I am going to call Citibank again and get this one credited if I can.

[blankslate]

I found an email newsletter in my folders from Mr. Simco that discusses the bad effects of Marijuana Use.

This is at the bottom of the email:

"You are currently subscribed to "Jiu-Jitsu.Net eNewsletter and Discount list"
as: *******@juno.com
To unsubscribe send a blank email to: leave-jiujitsu-enews-1292731*@lyris.hvpages.com"

[blankslate]

Now I'm trying this number: 1-800-277-4407

They seem to have found my name in their records.

OK, not good. They found my name in the account and the lady has cancelled. But, she cannot reverse the original charge and supposedly I will be charged again next month and she can't stop that either. (total of 19.98)

She claims that when I ordered the books online...the checkout form includes an option to request a subscrition to the newsletter. I don't remember requesting this especially if there would have been a charge associated with it.

I will check my order form tonight ...I may play around with a dummy order as well to see exactly what happened.

I am not happy about this.

[Aranha]

please email me at gene@jiu-jitsu.net

I will take care of this for you.

I think they have a problem with some of the employees there.

[The Wastrel]

Now I'm trying this number: 1-800-277-4407

They seem to have found my name in their records.

OK, not good. They found my name in the account and the lady has cancelled. But, she cannot reverse the original charge and supposedly I will be charged again next month and she can't stop that either. (total of 19.98)

She claims that when I ordered the books online...the checkout form includes an option to request a subscrition to the newsletter. I don't remember requesting this especially if there would have been a charge associated with it.

I will check my order form tonight ...I may play around with a dummy order as well to see exactly what happened.

I am not happy about this.

blankslate,
The option is to opt-out of the newsletter and discount list, which is a reversal of the typical formulation.

Also, to retiterate, the poster "Aranha" is Gene Simco of NYMAG, the author of "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: The Master Text". He is personally seeing to it that these issues are resolved, and his personal efforts and professionalism here are much appreciated.

This brings up the question of whether the order form ought to be changed. Opt-in offers are the norm, and it seems that they would lead to less trouble.

[blankslate]

please email me at gene@jiu-jitsu.net

I will take care of this for you.

I think they have a problem with some of the employees there.

Thank you.

[Mr. Mantis]

APS needs to be dumped.

[blankslate]

blankslate,
The option is to opt-out of the newsletter and discount list, which is a reversal of the typical formulation.

Also, to retiterate, the poster "Aranha" is Gene Simco of NYMAG, the author of "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: The Master Text". He is personally seeing to it that these issues are resolved, and his personal efforts and professionalism here are much appreciated.

This brings up the question of whether the order form ought to be changed. Opt-in offers are the norm, and it seems that they would lead to less trouble.

As usual, the god of critical thinking is correct.

Yes, the order form is deceptive. The order form asks for your name and email which is quite common and then shows a "I DON'T WANT" box instead of the more "normal" request "please subscribe me"....not very nice, not nice at all.

Mr. Simco is displaying some coolness here.

[Phrost]

Mr. Simco seems to have been working hard to resolve this and at this point it doesn't appear to be directly his fault. I'm going to change the title of the thread to reflect this.

[blankslate]

Mr. Simco has just emailed me. He promises to refund the money personally and change the wording on the website.

Outstanding. What a classy guy.

And by the way, I'm just a beginning grappler but his Basics book and Master Text are awesome. I'd say that whether I got the money back or not.

The benefits of being a Bullshido member never end...do they? Wow. Thanks again Phrost and Wastrel. Thanks Bullshido!