Caveat Emptor: APS Billing (for Jiu-jitsu.net)

[Orledyn]

1. Charge Backs cost them about $25 a shot whether they win or lose.
2. If they get enough charge backs, they will lose their merchant account & be unable to charge CCs.
3. You will undoubtedly win the charge back if they have no written or recorded proof of you requesting those automatic charges.
4. Ask the customer service reps to give your money back politely, but sternly; they just work there, they probably disagree with the boss' business practices, and given the nature of their job, they will be really glad to speak with someone that ISN'T pissed as hell.
5. Tell them they have ONE week to do it (most companies issue refunds once a week) and if you don't see that money back, that is it.

Also, NEVER, EVER order from a company that claims they cannot accept credit cards, for any reason. It probably means they lost their merchant account for shady business practices, or couldn't even get one because of said reason.


Oh yeah, and don't bother mentioning court or lawyers, and especially not the police, they will laugh at you. :P

[Scrapper]

You do not owe them anything. That particular practice, while common, is in violation of several laws. No one can rquire that you cancel an automatic sharge to avoid it. You have to consent specifically to the charge. You did not. Pornographers get away with this because no one wants to admit that they buy internet porn.

Same goes for music club automatic shipments. If you don't specifically ask for it...you don't have to pay for it. Period.

Refer them to the fair collections act of 1995 and tell them to fuck off. They will cave. Trust me.

[CrimsonTiger]

I'd trust Anthony on this one...

[Ka-Bar]

Small claims court. At least the threat of it.

[PirateJon]

What Anthony said.

Those billing places HATE chargebacks because if they get enough that means that the CC companies like Visa will start chargeing them more. So they'll give your money back in the next day or two rather than deal with it.

[Pandinha]

Chargeback.

Tell ASP that if you don't get credit for this malicous and underhand way of billing, you are going staright to Visa USA and charging back.

Will work all the time.

[CrimsonTiger]

This was an e-newsletter? Something that most sites offer as a free update/service?

[The Wastrel]

I'm trying to run down the complete Consumer Sales Act. Any ideas?

[kenpofred]

I love this quote in your email to them:

"This tactic I thought, was reserved to pornographers."

Well...I can see where they got that tactic, since his videos (http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/dvd_set.shtml) have the following info on the bottom of the page:

"Directed by Former Penthouse Executive Director, Nicholas Guccione"

[The Wastrel]

Also, I would argue, that there was no valid offer to accept. Throw in that the whole thing is unconscionable.

That's a good point. Who charges ten dollars a month for a "discount"?

[Mr. Mantis]

Also, I would argue, that there was no valid offer to accept. Throw in that the whole thing is unconscionable. If you can use the consumer sales practice act you get atty fees and treble damages. Title 5 rings a bell.

I had a problem similar to this with AOL many years ago when I first was scoping out internet providers. I used their disk for their "50 hours free" thing and used the program once, determined it sucked, and moved on. I didn't cancel and they tried to bill me. I fired them off a letter, threatening to sue them. I also contested the charge with my credit card.

I won with suprisingly minimal effort.

[Bang!]

You're right. But its always funnier to incite fervent nationalism.

In any case, we may want to sticky a list of dodgy business practices, etc. that fall outside of typical MdDojo territory.

[The Wastrel]

Well, it should be broader than that. If someone fucks with their customers...

[Greese]

Amen. If I visited that site...I wouldn't now!

[Bang!]

The fact of the matter is that Bullshido.net has increasing clout in the MA world--at the very least through sheer numbers. If someone fucks with one of our own, they should feel it.