Brock Lesnar - Douchebag of the Month - July 2009

[Phrost]

They could potentially kill several birds with one stone by bumping Welterweight to 156-175, Middleweight to 176-195, LHW to 196-220, and HW to 221+.

Those birds would be Anderson Silva and GSP's respective locks on their divisions.

[Goju - Joe]

Prediction: Super heavy is coming back.


Only if its at another event.

Lesnar is a super heavy who can cut to heavy, more likely they're going to do a cruiser weight of 220-245 or something like that.

[G-Off]

They could potentially kill several birds with one stone by bumping Welterweight to 156-175, Middleweight to 176-195, LHW to 196-220, and HW to 221+.

Those birds would be Anderson Silva and GSP's respective locks on their divisions.

Interesting idea, although it wouldn't do anything about Lesnar. If you get a large enough number of fighters dropping from 205 to 195, it could work.

[Matt Phillips]

Anyone remember this?

How Big is Too Big? : :
By Jason Probst (September 30, 2002)


As Mixed Martial Arts expands into the public consciousness, the various promoters of MMA events face a constant challenge. Part of this is constant tinkering with the rules to preserve the sportive aspect while avoiding the old-style "blood sport" feel that marked earlier matches. Rounds and weight classes were the other half of the equation, changing the event from a "one man leaves standing" human dogfight into an athletic event. Strikes to certain areas have been banned, and it's all good. The perception is that the better fighter will find a way to win using technique, not something culled from the dregs of the "How to kill a man in a street fight" mail-order course.

Perhaps the best innovation is the weight classes. No longer facing the grisly prospect of facing men with a huge size advantage, the little guys, particularly in the UFC, have been allowed to compete against folks like themselves. As such, their stardom has flourished. Hell, most of us connoisseurs would take a match of lower weight fighters next to any heavyweight dream bout.

But what do you do when the heavyweights are invaded by mesomorphic monsters? The old problem of the size disparity raised its head during PRIDE Shockwave, when Antonio Nogueira faced Bob Sapp. Nogueira, no small man at 230 lbs., is generally regarded as the best heavyweight in the world. But in tangling with Sapp, he might as well have been a lightweight facing someone his own size. Sapp, a former University of Washington offensive lineman, goes 370, with little wasted physique. So huge and powerful, Sapp was able to lift and spike Nogueira during the bout, a terrifying move which brought the question to bear: How big is too big? And should there be a super heavyweight class created to preserve the sportive aspect of MMA?

Nogueira persevered, surviving the savage concussions, and in a brutal fight submitted Sapp. It was a truly close call. Sure, technique won out, but the salient issue remains: weight classes exist so the most skilled fighter triumphs. Is there any doubt as to how competitive the bout would have been if Sapp were merely 75 lbs. bigger instead of having twice that advantage? It's a scary precedent. There are a lot more 350 lb. monsters walking around after the NFL makes its final cuts than you realize. Imagine their impact on MMA if/when word gets around that you can make a few bucks entering a sport where a few months' training and natural athletic ability could promise serious dollars. It sure as hell beats the normal life after football.

During the old days of the UFC, when Royce Gracie was ruling the roost, we used to sit around and figure out a way to beat him. The learning curve for cross-training hadn't really kicked in, and the Brazilians seemed invincible. No matter what they threw at him -- from Ken Shamrock to Dan Severn -- Gracie solved them or at least proved that size wasn't enough, not even with world-class grappling skills. Mike Tyson would have a shot -- literally, one shot -- and once he missed he was screwed. And hitting a man cleanly at a full rush had proven much harder than it would seem. So Tyson was out.

But at Washington State University we had the man for the job: Mark Fields.

Fields, at 6'2 and 240 lbs. ran a 4.4 forty and had pro scouts drooling. He was the most dominant college linebacker of his time, and anchored a defense that was so good, we used to actually cheer when the Cougs punted. Over several beers, the theory developed that Fields, accustomed to high impacts and tackling, could dethrone Gracie with a full-on bum rush collision. He didn't need a black belt, just a boatload of fast-twitch muscles, which help make him a Pro Bowler today. By stunning Gracie with a high-speed crushing hit, he could land on top, and unleash a quick punch or two while Royce was recovering, and hence, end of Royce. It sounded like a whistling in the graveyard premise, a reach, albeit a fascinating one, until the Sapp- Nogueira bout.

Rick Robertson, a former wrassler, WSU football player, and problem drinker, summed it up best: "Fields probably wouldn't win, but that freaking tackle would be worth the $30 on the cable bill." Suddenly, it's not the joke it used to be.

A football player with a huge size advantage can do pretty well in MMA. Maybe not a Fields, but someone 100 or more lbs. bigger could. Sapp is proof.

Say you're 180 lbs. If you've ever sparred with a 110 lb. black belt, you know how much weight counts.

But sadly enough, the flip side of the monster heavyweights is that usually they aren't that skillful. When pitted against each other, the usual result between two 330-lb. sluggers is a mutual exchange, somebody falls down and can't get up, and the other guy slops on top of them and pounds them into submission. It's akin to Russian military tactics: not fancy, sublime, or high-minded, but brutal and effective just the same. But a guy like Sapp is different. He probably couldn't beat you in the 100 yard dash, but he could beat you to your mailbox. A football player makes it pretty scary.

The worst-case scenario of the spiking was luckily avoided. Nogueira could've been seriously injured, or even killed. If you remember what Frank Shamrock did to Igor Zinoviev, you know how dangerous a simple slam is, much less a spiking. Only until a powerful force like Sapp has come along, it has become apparent that this move might need to be banned, or at least pit him against someone his own size to mitigate the likelihood of it happening (imagine Sapp lifting and spiking 330 lb. Daniel Bobish.....which begs the question of, "Is it a no-contest if the canvas is cratered?" Of course Bob would probably get a hernia doing it.........which would deter him from trying it in the future. But not against feather-light people like Nogueira).

As it stands now, people like Sapp are still relatively rare in NHB. The diminishing returns of speed as size increases past a certain point are inhibiting. If you remember Randy Couture's debut in the UFC, the point was made pretty obviously, as he submitted Tony Halme and Stephen Graham, both weighing close to 300 lbs., yet both lacked the quickness to deal with a world-class 225 lb. wrestler. But someone 370 may be pretty dangerous with just a touch of that first-step explosiveness. There aren't many Sapps around, and as such, his brutal bout with "Minotauro" won't be a recurring issue. But eventually there might be. And if the succession of the once-invincible Gracies by the current crop of champions proves, it's that nothing is unchallenged in MMA.

Somewhere could be a 400 lb. monster that's 20 years old, a brown belt, and cross-training his butt off. When he gets into MMA, he won't be some WWF washout. He won't be an ex-football player looking for another way to make a buck. He won't be a bodybuilder with a mean streak. He will know his stuff. And he'll be so big and powerful that nobody can do anything with him.

Give him a couple years to enter the mix, and he'll force the question of a super heavyweight division, possibly tearing someone's limb off or badly mauling them in the process (it's not an exaggeration....someone that powerful who actually knew how to lay in a triangle, or a Kimura, or whatever....in the heat of combat it's not hard to imagine something Very Regrettable happening.......this could also affect scoring in sport jiu-jitsu as well.......how many points for tearing a man's arm off? Or for knee to the stomach ending in the recipient coughing up his spleen?).

Think it sounds farfetched? Well, give it time. If there's anything America has proven during the past decade of Mixed Martial Arts, it's that ideas, innovations, and concepts cross-pollinate at astounding speed. Given just five years, from 1993-98, the improvement and emergence of Americans who were virtually clueless in the early UFCs is amazing. If you'd said there would be a day when Gracies were losing more than they were winning (albeit against bigger guys), you would've sounded crazy back then (like if a month ago, somebody told you the Rams would open the season 0-3).

In time, huge people like Sapp will not only enter the sport in greater numbers, but they'll be training for several years as opposed to entering the game fairly late. His success is not going to go unnoticed, and the repercussions could be significant. That's exactly the kind of thing that nobody, not even a great champion like Nogueira, should be reasonably expected to face. Of course, the mores behind PRIDE are far different. MMA fighting is an accepted sport in Japan, and they don't have to toe the line. They can sell a freak attraction and not sweat the repercussions. But stateside there are a lot of big people and MMA training is everywhere. The reason you haven't seen a 400 lb, 15% body fat black belt? Give it time, it takes a few years.

The super heavyweights are a concept that should be explored now. Let the authorities hash out the limit, whether it's 275, 300, 325, or whatever. But do something. Plus, it might actually hasten the development of skills, as guys would have to learn techniques instead of relying on a huge weight advantage. It'd be nice to see it happen in a proactive manner, before somebody becomes the tragic index case for why it should've been instituted in the first place.

[Zapruder]

Phrost, hit the nail right on the mother fucking head. We're right back to UFC 10 with Coleman jumping around like a bright red orangutan, making the whole event look bad.

I think its time to consider something that has been taboo since the dark days of the cable ban: boycott. I'm not paying for that shit if Brock's on the card. Sorry, but I've been insulted enough by Brock and his locker room buddies in the last 17 years. Enough.

I too will not pay for any UFC that Cock Chestnar is in...though this does not mean I wont watch it.

[core1065]

Its all an act. Trying to drum up an image for himself. He wants to be the guy you want to beat, its only going to bring up ticket sales.

[Zapruder]

Well, at least he proves that a complete asshole can still be a great martial artist.

Even though you are dead wrong I will comment: you still have no chance at being great.

[Truculent Sheep]

The real loser here is MMA's public image, as some of the comments on this thread show:

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/07/12...hat-wasnt.html

The Lesnar affair has simply confirmed a lot of people's prejudices. Is sportsmanship such a dirty word?

[cam4276]

I just think Lesnar is a douche. I thought it before the fight and i think it now.

And I do hate the fact that a WWE guy is the UFC champ. He can be drug tested every day. He didnt get that big by accident. He has previously used steriods. Anyone who denies that is an idiot. Ever seen a natural bodybuilding competition?

Also, the fact that some guy with no MMA experience can come in and be heavyweight champ in a couple of fights seriously takes away from the sport (I know he is a very good wrestler). It also shows that the UFC is not necessarily made up of the best fighters in the world but rather the best fighters the UFC can attract.

It is time for the UFC to stasrt thinking about why they cant attract guys like Fedor. I agree with the person above and hope they sign Fedor to kill this mother fucker.

[DKJr]

The real loser here is MMA's public image, as some of the comments on this thread show:

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/07/12...hat-wasnt.html

The Lesnar affair has simply confirmed a lot of people's prejudices. Is sportsmanship such a dirty word?

Exactly my issue with Dick Chest. Everyone and their fucking grandmother was watching last night and he and Hendo (yes even though I enjoyed seeing it, it was bad for the sport) made the sport unappealing to people. Cock reinforced the idea that the sport is just full of steroid infused asshats, and Hendo made it look like a ruthless death match (Guys like Bill O'Reily are gonna have a field day with this).

If Hendo wouldn't have smashed the deserving douche Bisping, and if Brock vs. Mir was replaced with Anderson v. Forrest it would have been an excellent event. I normally wouldn't mind Hendo bashing someone like that but this was the event everyone was watching.

[Matt Phillips]

Everything old is new again.

[Dagon Akujin]

YouTube - Brock Lesnar Apologizes During Press Conference

Chesty is looking a little better now that the event is over. It seems that even he realizes that he's a douche sometimes. Then again, most people who watched the fight won't see the follow up appologies and explanations. But, he may be able to do his mae culpa with fight fans and gain a little respect back.

[ouachita]

From what I saw, Brock was fighting with a lot of emotion and it overwhelmed him to the point where he allowed the crowd and Mir's pre-fight antics to dictate his actions. Apparently Brock's greatest foe is himself. I'm sure there were several other factors that contributed to his behavior that we will never know.

Should Brock have flipped off the crowd just because they were booing him? No. That is where he "bit the hand that feeds him".

Should Mir have allowed one of his trainers to be filmed mocking Lesnar and purposely ? No. That is where he "poked the bear."

Will I continue to be a Lesnar fan? Yes. I respect someone who answered Dana White's challenge of a professional wrestler would never make it in the UFC. And, for the same reasons why I like coming to this forum. I like people who speak their mind and aren't afraid of the consequences.

[sambosteve]

A little humble pie is good for Brock.

Having said that, even without the appology, I would not boycott UFC with Brock on the card. Sure he acted like a dick. But there have been plenty of fighters I have not liked.

In the end, I always base my decision to buy on the entire card. I would not boycott a card just because Brock is on it. That would also hurt many other fighters I do like to watch.

Brock won the fight...for better or for worse. Take it as it is. Someone will come along and beat him...they always do. I will root for everyone he fights in the future though :)

[Permalost]

I like that there's a Bud Light sitting on the desk. Also, even though it's the uneducated douchebag thing to think, I want to see him fight Kimbo Slice.

I personally think it's stupid how *everyone* has to hug after an MMA match. Making it practically mandatory took away all the meaning it had when it was spontaneous. Just another bullshit workplace superficiality.

Same thing with squashing beef after a fight. Fuck that, sometimes you still hate the guy (Marcus Davis anyone?). Brock might've taken it a bit too far. And I hated seeing Mir lose too. But that's still way better than the artificial gestures of feigned 'respect', 'friendship' or 'compassion too many other douchebags do.

So yeah Brock, you kept it a little too real. But damn! Are we gonna be that community of pussies that writes people up and boycotts them for keeping it too real? Nah, I'm gonna laugh and say 'Fuck you too Brock', but on the low I do kinda appreciate your honesty.

Sometimes in fight sports, you just have to suck it up and show respect even when you don't want to, and I think this is a good thing. Yesterday, I was competing in a moving step push hands tournament (basically you throw the guy or shove him out of the ring, with a point system favoring throws and a bunch of restrictions on the types you can do). At one point, I underhooked an arm and grabbed my hand with my other hand to lever him down- this is a tactic that I use all the time in training. One of the judges got in my face about how I can't use joint locks. I started to tell him that I've never heard that was illegal and the way I do it isn't a lock. He wasn't having it. I wanted to argue, but I sucked it up and said okay, I won't do it again, because I really don't want to be a dick in a combat sport.