Bullshido made Kung Fu Black Belts: is this up to standard?

[Omega Supreme]

haven't seen that happen, in my experience, once someone has gotten their points (via batsugun anyway) they are out, and can't take any matches.

the kohaku shiai is a pretty good system, but it has a couple of things that make it tough for someone in my shoes.

* they only happens 2x a year here (not so bad, but my schedule always causes me to miss one of them, so 1x a year for me. more would be nice, but i understand why they only have two

* the masters division (40+) is full of large people. as a 42 year old who competes at 66kg, i get the choice of fighting someone roughly my age *or* someone roughly my size. this isn't the fault of the USJF, it just sucks for me

* the recent IJF rule changes (last 5 years) make it harder for a smaller player to beat a larger one (no leg attacks) again, not the USJF's fault, but it sucks for me.


so the kohaku shiai is pretty much the best system i have seen so far for judo, and i have no suggestions on how to change it, other than magically getting more people into judo to allow for more populated and frequent shiai.

Thank you for quoting 1point2. Again he's an idiot.

That being said, it'd be a hard thing to determine an style such as mine compared to one who has a competition side built into it.

We have:
Weapons
Forms
Striking
Kicking
Self Defense
Sparring:
a. San Shou
b. MMA
c. Grappling
4. Multiple person

Then we'd have to pressure test the x factor of skill knowledge, so we introduce fatigue.

I'm starting to see why there are so many Mcdojos out there.

Some of you guys would rather see this:

[Ming Loyalist]

A kohaku shiai format avoids most of this problem by using a non-bracketed matching system, but there's often one or two matches at the end where someone fights a round that matters for their opponent for not themselves.

haven't seen that happen, in my experience, once someone has gotten their points (via batsugun anyway) they are out, and can't take any matches.

the kohaku shiai is a pretty good system, but it has a couple of things that make it tough for someone in my shoes.

* they only happens 2x a year here (not so bad, but my schedule always causes me to miss one of them, so 1x a year for me. more would be nice, but i understand why they only have two

* the masters division (40+) is full of large people. as a 42 year old who competes at 66kg, i get the choice of fighting someone roughly my age *or* someone roughly my size. this isn't the fault of the USJF, it just sucks for me

* the recent IJF rule changes (last 5 years) make it harder for a smaller player to beat a larger one (no leg attacks) again, not the USJF's fault, but it sucks for me.


so the kohaku shiai is pretty much the best system i have seen so far for judo, and i have no suggestions on how to change it, other than magically getting more people into judo to allow for more populated and frequent shiai.

[Omega Supreme]

This is probably a higher bar than 99% of all black belt tests, across most styles.

What this would say to me (Joe consumer) is that Valhalla has very high standards for their particular BB program. Other martial artists themselves will either love it or hate it, but word will get around that Valhalla has the r34l and your BB will actually mean something in your market...when you consider how many thousands of crappy BB programs surround your gym, this kind of video would tend to invite the discriminating MA customer, ie one who has already made up their mind to train hard and swallow the pain before they even show up.

I think there are those customers who come and never have a hope of attaining your BB, customers that will be inspired along the way to do so, and the ones who drool at the thought of training at Valhalla. I think this video hits at least the latter two prospective customer groups, and discourages the first.

And imho, any good test of arms should include trivia, physical challenges, and an obstacle course.

Oh and you should add some sort of awesome prize on top of the BB. Send one lucky BB to Space Camp:

So before my time.

[W. Rabbit]

This is probably a higher bar than 99% of all black belt tests, across most styles.

What this would say to me (Joe consumer) is that Valhalla has very high standards for their particular BB program. Other martial artists themselves will either love it or hate it, but word will get around that Valhalla has the r34l and your BB will actually mean something in your market...when you consider how many thousands of crappy BB programs surround your gym, this kind of video would tend to invite the discriminating MA customer, ie one who has already made up their mind to train hard and swallow the pain before they even show up.

I think there are those customers who come and never have a hope of attaining your BB, customers that will be inspired along the way to do so, and the ones who drool at the thought of training at Valhalla. I think this video hits at least the latter two prospective customer groups, and discourages the first.

And imho, any good test of arms should include trivia, physical challenges, and an obstacle course.

Oh and you should add some sort of awesome prize on top of the BB. Send one lucky BB to Space Camp:

[Omega Supreme]

What is the shortest period of time someone earned a black belt in your school? And if it is not too much trouble, could you up load some advanced MT pads or focus mitts work?

Shortest? 4 years with 4 years prior experience. As for the focus mitt work I guess I wasn't clear in my first post about this. We honestly didn't film it, we thought it was too boring. I've considered bringing it up as a standard rather than a pre requirement. I have a year to decide before the next group is eligible.

Watched the clp. Didn't like the music

I approve of Omega's testing procedures. Props to everyone especially to the girl in red.

1. :( I can only find epic music that youtube won't take down!
2. I wouldn't call it "my testing procedures", I tried to mold this according to what I thought the members would like to see.
3. Thank you, she's my daughter.

[It is Fake]

Odd, I thought we were having a discussion on testing methods where I disagreed.

LOL. What does this have to do with what I said?

Aside from my tossed-off comment

LOL Nothing. Dinged is the same as "tossed off comment."

[DCS]

Watched the clp. Didn't like the music

I approve of Omega's testing procedures. Props to everyone especially to the girl in red.

[erezb]

What is the shortest period of time someone earned a black belt in your school? And if it is not too much trouble, could you up load some advanced MT pads or focus mitts work?

[Omega Supreme]

Aside from my tossed-off comment about the weapons (which was really not all that fair just based on a few seconds of video), I wasn't really addressing anything but the fitness end of it. I know you're a competent guy, I assume you are testing the skills and fighting ability of your students in the test. My disagreement comes from making grueling fitness requirements part of a test that should be about your ability to fight with the skills you've been taught. I expect you will argue that the level of fitness is required to meet your expectations, fair enough. Just not my view.

Far from it. That's not why I make them do that. I do it for them to show the their resolve and their spirit, it tends to scare away the meek.

For the record, I got the results today. They passed their test.

[NeilG]

I question your scruples because you should know the beliefs here on bullshido or you don't. If you're chiming in on this thread then I assume you do. You think this is about fitness and that's only partly the situation.

Aside from my tossed-off comment about the weapons (which was really not all that fair just based on a few seconds of video), I wasn't really addressing anything but the fitness end of it. I know you're a competent guy, I assume you are testing the skills and fighting ability of your students in the test. My disagreement comes from making grueling fitness requirements part of a test that should be about your ability to fight with the skills you've been taught. I expect you will argue that the level of fitness is required to meet your expectations, fair enough. Just not my view.

[jspeedy]

MY thoughts: A grueling test is a good thing compared to the easy guaranteed half assed approach some of us have seen. If nothing else with a trying bb test, if all the other training is half assed at least the test will provide some measure of quality control. THe total pussies and those who aren't really dedicated won't even attempt the test thus assuring that at least the bbs you have are somewhat dedicated and have some measure of perseverance.

I think this is what Omega is going for on this one, if all schools even the shitty ones had some basic fitness requirements to earn a bb we'd probably have a significant number less bbs in this country. You set a benchmark and the majority of bbs have to attain it, there could be few exceptions for the disabled on a person to person basis but overall a male at bb level should be able to run a 5k at some point on his road to bb, the same goes for other basic fitness requirements.

Not sure I agree every school should require weapons, striking, and grappling. It certainly would be best. But if your school only teaches striking than keep only the striking requirements ect. You start making everybody do everything and you might get a lot of crappling and shitty weapons training at otherwise legit schools. of course, you could argue that some limited grappling is better than none, same for weapons.

One example I can think of is a JJJ school I visited on occasion. Daily training was relatively easy and compliant. Sparring happened once a month or so (same for rolling) and some limited kendo was incorporated. For the bb test, the student had to demonstrate numerous techniques ranging from karate kata, judo throws, and traditional JJJ techniques, than one step style attacks were given much like Oega describes and judo and JJJ techniques were demonstrated by the student. The test ended with 30 straight mins of sparring; several rounds of standup with a fresh opponent every 2 or 3 mins, a couple rounds of striking w/ takedown allowed which led to randori and a couple rounds of kendo. My point? The test was grueling for the students who weren't really conditioned for it but the few that stayed at the school long enough to reach bb stuck it out through the test and earned their belt. The school may not have been top notch but their bbs did have some heart. IMO this is much better than a bb hand out. I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue otherwise. At a quality school a gauntlet style test may not be necessary but at a poor quality school it may the the only meritorious thing a bb has done.

[Omega Supreme]

I'm not clear on why my scruples are in question, I merely joined the discussion and disagreed with you.
The key is in the name, "skill set". You teach them skills which require a certain level of fitness to execute. So why not just evaluate them on that execution? I guess you can argue that being fit is simply a requirement for the grade, and as you set the requirements I can't argue with your particular test. But the question you posed is, should your test serve as an example for what a test should be according to the general standard of this forum. So that's just where I disagree, and I've already stated what I think should be in a test, so I'll leave the argument there.

I question your scruples because you should know the beliefs here on bullshido or you don't. If you're chiming in on this thread then I assume you do. You think this is about fitness and that's only partly the situation.

You also dismissed the weapon's pre-requisite before knowing what the pre requisite are. You dismiss the entire video because you dismissed that part of the video. So yes, I question your scruples. How do you consider yourself a moral person when you don't have the integrity to grind through the techniques? You consider it okay to dismiss everything and disagree with everything without knowing what the purpose of the program is?

I put together this test as a possibility of a general format that others could possibly follow. This kung fu system is not better than any others, it's different. I pressure tested my criteria. I do this for SAMBO too. For Jiu Jitsu I just have my guys compete.

You can disagree with me all you want but at least have some integrity to come from a point of knowledge not assumption.

[NeilG]

I question your scruples, not whether you disagree with me or not.

I'm not clear on why my scruples are in question, I merely joined the discussion and disagreed with you.

You say it has nothing to do with the skill set they are taught. Since you are so knowledgeable on the skill set they are taught why don't you explain it to us?

The key is in the name, "skill set". You teach them skills which require a certain level of fitness to execute. So why not just evaluate them on that execution? I guess you can argue that being fit is simply a requirement for the grade, and as you set the requirements I can't argue with your particular test. But the question you posed is, should your test serve as an example for what a test should be according to the general standard of this forum. So that's just where I disagree, and I've already stated what I think should be in a test, so I'll leave the argument there.

[1point2]

I have one issue with the zero-sum approach: Say I manage to get my points early on in the competition. I still have to take matches to give other people their opportunity to collect some wins. I don't have as much motivation to win as they do which could affect how the fight goes down.

Also it kind of sucks to kill someone's chances of grading when I don't need the win, which kind of takes the shine off getting my promotion. Even worse, I've heard of one guy being accused of throwing one of his fights so his friend can win. I don't particularly believe those accusations, but I can't help but feel that there is a chance that someone could make that accuation about me if I was fighting someone I knew after I got my points and I lost.

I agree. My old judo coach told me stories of watching players take falls for their friends. A kohaku shiai format avoids most of this problem by using a non-bracketed matching system, but there's often one or two matches at the end where someone fights a round that matters for their opponent for not themselves.

Capnmunch-- I don't mean to diss cardio. I actually liked seeing the 5k in Omega's plan. Having some bare minimums is a fine idea. I was merely pointing out that "let's do X hours of calisthenics all in 1 weekend" is fairly well-recognized as a popular testing approach in light contact TMA schools:

• "20 hour black belt test" of a 10 year old in Don Jitsu ryu or something:
  
  
  
  
• 
  Yahoo Answers gives us an 8-hour test, an overnight test, a 5 hour test...
  
• Jo Kwon Chi style has a similar test with forms, breaking, a mile run, calisthenics, sparring...
  
• My old karate school has an overnight test, approximately 22 hours.

I get it: people sweat, it's hard, so they figure it means something. But I bet if any of these schools above popped on BS.net's radar there would be pointing and laughing. I'm not trying to point and laugh at these guys nor at Omega's school. I'm not even saying it's bullshido. But isn't it weird that when Omega has his students do some some forms, push-ups, and one-step self-defense it's a revolutionary Bullshido-approved testing modality that produces people "clearly not to be fucked with"?

As to your (Capnmunch's) other point, "not everyone will be able to lift heavy weights", well, setting bodyweight-scaled standards avoids that problem. Just off the top of my head you could require 3 pull-ups and 1xBW squat. That's about on par with a 30:00 5k. But again, the question is why you're having them do all this stuff. If it's to prove their fighting fitness, well, what's wrong with sparring or competition? Then we don't need to make up a bunch of arbitrary fitness benchmarks. (Don't get me wrong, I love arbitrary benchmarks, I ponder fitness benchmarks a lot.)

I have him on my ignore list because he's generally full of shit. I'm glad nothing has changed.

Aw, love you too. Smooches.

In the past we've complained about fat, overweight and generally non skilled people who've gotten their blackbelts. People who couldn't kick over their head. People who knew nothing of self-defense. Some arts specialize in specific areas. They have ways to test. I've even been on the receiving end of the "Hey, you're skilled enough, or you won the competition here's your black belt" end of things. That always left me empty inside. That's how I obtained my first blackbelt.

Part of the point I was trying to make is that the training, not the testing, should prevent out-of-shape and incompetent people from attaining rank. If someone is training and it's still not coming together, they're not ready for whatever reason, then don't recommend them for the next rank. Tell them what they need to improve, whether it's kicking above their head, being fat, whatever. Then the test can remain quite simple.

But, and I'm quite serious here, if the casual "hey here's your belt" approach didn't make you feel good, then I entirely understand you choosing the more formal and complex approach for your students.

[NeilG]

NeilG who shit on your doorstep? I expect this asshattery from Crackfox and 1Pokemon2, but when did you stop being able to take what you dish out? You took a jab at his teaching and he returned the favor.

Odd, I thought we were having a discussion on testing methods where I disagreed.