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Bullshido made Kung Fu Black Belts: is this up to standard?

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    #46
    Originally posted by NeilG View Post
    I'm not clear on why my scruples are in question, I merely joined the discussion and disagreed with you.
    The key is in the name, "skill set". You teach them skills which require a certain level of fitness to execute. So why not just evaluate them on that execution? I guess you can argue that being fit is simply a requirement for the grade, and as you set the requirements I can't argue with your particular test. But the question you posed is, should your test serve as an example for what a test should be according to the general standard of this forum. So that's just where I disagree, and I've already stated what I think should be in a test, so I'll leave the argument there.
    I question your scruples because you should know the beliefs here on bullshido or you don't. If you're chiming in on this thread then I assume you do. You think this is about fitness and that's only partly the situation.

    You also dismissed the weapon's pre-requisite before knowing what the pre requisite are. You dismiss the entire video because you dismissed that part of the video. So yes, I question your scruples. How do you consider yourself a moral person when you don't have the integrity to grind through the techniques? You consider it okay to dismiss everything and disagree with everything without knowing what the purpose of the program is?

    I put together this test as a possibility of a general format that others could possibly follow. This kung fu system is not better than any others, it's different. I pressure tested my criteria. I do this for SAMBO too. For Jiu Jitsu I just have my guys compete.

    You can disagree with me all you want but at least have some integrity to come from a point of knowledge not assumption.

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      #47
      MY thoughts: A grueling test is a good thing compared to the easy guaranteed half assed approach some of us have seen. If nothing else with a trying bb test, if all the other training is half assed at least the test will provide some measure of quality control. THe total pussies and those who aren't really dedicated won't even attempt the test thus assuring that at least the bbs you have are somewhat dedicated and have some measure of perseverance.

      I think this is what Omega is going for on this one, if all schools even the shitty ones had some basic fitness requirements to earn a bb we'd probably have a significant number less bbs in this country. You set a benchmark and the majority of bbs have to attain it, there could be few exceptions for the disabled on a person to person basis but overall a male at bb level should be able to run a 5k at some point on his road to bb, the same goes for other basic fitness requirements.

      Not sure I agree every school should require weapons, striking, and grappling. It certainly would be best. But if your school only teaches striking than keep only the striking requirements ect. You start making everybody do everything and you might get a lot of crappling and shitty weapons training at otherwise legit schools. of course, you could argue that some limited grappling is better than none, same for weapons.

      One example I can think of is a JJJ school I visited on occasion. Daily training was relatively easy and compliant. Sparring happened once a month or so (same for rolling) and some limited kendo was incorporated. For the bb test, the student had to demonstrate numerous techniques ranging from karate kata, judo throws, and traditional JJJ techniques, than one step style attacks were given much like Oega describes and judo and JJJ techniques were demonstrated by the student. The test ended with 30 straight mins of sparring; several rounds of standup with a fresh opponent every 2 or 3 mins, a couple rounds of striking w/ takedown allowed which led to randori and a couple rounds of kendo. My point? The test was grueling for the students who weren't really conditioned for it but the few that stayed at the school long enough to reach bb stuck it out through the test and earned their belt. The school may not have been top notch but their bbs did have some heart. IMO this is much better than a bb hand out. I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue otherwise. At a quality school a gauntlet style test may not be necessary but at a poor quality school it may the the only meritorious thing a bb has done.

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        #48
        Originally posted by Omega Supreme View Post
        I question your scruples because you should know the beliefs here on bullshido or you don't. If you're chiming in on this thread then I assume you do. You think this is about fitness and that's only partly the situation.
        Aside from my tossed-off comment about the weapons (which was really not all that fair just based on a few seconds of video), I wasn't really addressing anything but the fitness end of it. I know you're a competent guy, I assume you are testing the skills and fighting ability of your students in the test. My disagreement comes from making grueling fitness requirements part of a test that should be about your ability to fight with the skills you've been taught. I expect you will argue that the level of fitness is required to meet your expectations, fair enough. Just not my view.

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          #49
          Originally posted by NeilG View Post
          Aside from my tossed-off comment about the weapons (which was really not all that fair just based on a few seconds of video), I wasn't really addressing anything but the fitness end of it. I know you're a competent guy, I assume you are testing the skills and fighting ability of your students in the test. My disagreement comes from making grueling fitness requirements part of a test that should be about your ability to fight with the skills you've been taught. I expect you will argue that the level of fitness is required to meet your expectations, fair enough. Just not my view.

          Far from it. That's not why I make them do that. I do it for them to show the their resolve and their spirit, it tends to scare away the meek.

          For the record, I got the results today. They passed their test.

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            #50
            What is the shortest period of time someone earned a black belt in your school? And if it is not too much trouble, could you up load some advanced MT pads or focus mitts work?

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              #51
              Watched the clp. Didn't like the music

              I approve of Omega's testing procedures. Props to everyone especially to the girl in red.

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by NeilG View Post
                Odd, I thought we were having a discussion on testing methods where I disagreed.
                LOL. What does this have to do with what I said?

                Originally posted by NeilG View Post
                Aside from my tossed-off comment
                LOL Nothing. Dinged is the same as "tossed off comment."
                Last edited by It is Fake; 12/05/2013 10:37am, .

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by erezb View Post
                  What is the shortest period of time someone earned a black belt in your school? And if it is not too much trouble, could you up load some advanced MT pads or focus mitts work?
                  Shortest? 4 years with 4 years prior experience. As for the focus mitt work I guess I wasn't clear in my first post about this. We honestly didn't film it, we thought it was too boring. I've considered bringing it up as a standard rather than a pre requirement. I have a year to decide before the next group is eligible.

                  Originally posted by DCS View Post
                  Watched the clp. Didn't like the music

                  I approve of Omega's testing procedures. Props to everyone especially to the girl in red.
                  1. :( I can only find epic music that youtube won't take down!
                  2. I wouldn't call it "my testing procedures", I tried to mold this according to what I thought the members would like to see.
                  3. Thank you, she's my daughter.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    This is probably a higher bar than 99% of all black belt tests, across most styles.

                    What this would say to me (Joe consumer) is that Valhalla has very high standards for their particular BB program. Other martial artists themselves will either love it or hate it, but word will get around that Valhalla has the r34l and your BB will actually mean something in your market...when you consider how many thousands of crappy BB programs surround your gym, this kind of video would tend to invite the discriminating MA customer, ie one who has already made up their mind to train hard and swallow the pain before they even show up.

                    I think there are those customers who come and never have a hope of attaining your BB, customers that will be inspired along the way to do so, and the ones who drool at the thought of training at Valhalla. I think this video hits at least the latter two prospective customer groups, and discourages the first.

                    And imho, any good test of arms should include trivia, physical challenges, and an obstacle course.

                    Oh and you should add some sort of awesome prize on top of the BB. Send one lucky BB to Space Camp:

                    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 12/05/2013 11:11am, .
                    '�I am no advocate of passivity,� Coffin Mott said in an 1860 speech. �Quakerism, as I understand it, does not mean quietism. The early Friends were agitators; disturbers of the peace; and were more obnoxious in their day to charges, which are now so freely made, than we are.�'

                    My Glossary: https://www.bullshido.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=129294

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by W. Rabbit View Post
                      This is probably a higher bar than 99% of all black belt tests, across most styles.

                      What this would say to me (Joe consumer) is that Valhalla has very high standards for their particular BB program. Other martial artists themselves will either love it or hate it, but word will get around that Valhalla has the r34l and your BB will actually mean something in your market...when you consider how many thousands of crappy BB programs surround your gym, this kind of video would tend to invite the discriminating MA customer, ie one who has already made up their mind to train hard and swallow the pain before they even show up.

                      I think there are those customers who come and never have a hope of attaining your BB, customers that will be inspired along the way to do so, and the ones who drool at the thought of training at Valhalla. I think this video hits at least the latter two prospective customer groups, and discourages the first.

                      And imho, any good test of arms should include trivia, physical challenges, and an obstacle course.

                      Oh and you should add some sort of awesome prize on top of the BB. Send one lucky BB to Space Camp:

                      So before my time.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
                        A kohaku shiai format avoids most of this problem by using a non-bracketed matching system, but there's often one or two matches at the end where someone fights a round that matters for their opponent for not themselves.
                        haven't seen that happen, in my experience, once someone has gotten their points (via batsugun anyway) they are out, and can't take any matches.

                        the kohaku shiai is a pretty good system, but it has a couple of things that make it tough for someone in my shoes.

                        * they only happens 2x a year here (not so bad, but my schedule always causes me to miss one of them, so 1x a year for me. more would be nice, but i understand why they only have two

                        * the masters division (40+) is full of large people. as a 42 year old who competes at 66kg, i get the choice of fighting someone roughly my age *or* someone roughly my size. this isn't the fault of the USJF, it just sucks for me

                        * the recent IJF rule changes (last 5 years) make it harder for a smaller player to beat a larger one (no leg attacks) again, not the USJF's fault, but it sucks for me.


                        so the kohaku shiai is pretty much the best system i have seen so far for judo, and i have no suggestions on how to change it, other than magically getting more people into judo to allow for more populated and frequent shiai.
                        "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
                        "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
                        "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
                        "Seriously, who gives a fuck what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
                          haven't seen that happen, in my experience, once someone has gotten their points (via batsugun anyway) they are out, and can't take any matches.

                          the kohaku shiai is a pretty good system, but it has a couple of things that make it tough for someone in my shoes.

                          * they only happens 2x a year here (not so bad, but my schedule always causes me to miss one of them, so 1x a year for me. more would be nice, but i understand why they only have two

                          * the masters division (40+) is full of large people. as a 42 year old who competes at 66kg, i get the choice of fighting someone roughly my age *or* someone roughly my size. this isn't the fault of the USJF, it just sucks for me

                          * the recent IJF rule changes (last 5 years) make it harder for a smaller player to beat a larger one (no leg attacks) again, not the USJF's fault, but it sucks for me.


                          so the kohaku shiai is pretty much the best system i have seen so far for judo, and i have no suggestions on how to change it, other than magically getting more people into judo to allow for more populated and frequent shiai.
                          Thank you for quoting 1point2. Again he's an idiot.

                          That being said, it'd be a hard thing to determine an style such as mine compared to one who has a competition side built into it.

                          We have:
                          Weapons
                          Forms
                          Striking
                          Kicking
                          Self Defense
                          Sparring:
                          a. San Shou
                          b. MMA
                          c. Grappling
                          4. Multiple person

                          Then we'd have to pressure test the x factor of skill knowledge, so we introduce fatigue.

                          I'm starting to see why there are so many Mcdojos out there.

                          Some of you guys would rather see this:









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