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Alive Training For Seniors or Dead Training Cuz Old People Suck

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    Alive Training For Seniors or Dead Training Cuz Old People Suck

    It seems that a lot of people are misunderstanding a comment like "you can't learn to fight without fighting" are not understanding/listening to the argument. The goal of teaching self defense isn't to make the student a person ready to go into fair combat with another athlete but to disable and/or escape using any means necessary. How do you best improve a persons capability to defend his/herself in a short period of time. Having to train in a full martial art is not good self defense because it takes too much time to get good at. Breaking defense down to a few very simple things so that your grandma can learn it and remember it ten years from now is the point, not prepping grandma to step into the ring.

    #2
    You couldn't be more wrong.

    Comment


      #3
      Good argument! Realistic self defense isn't about training to fight other fighters but preventing and dealing with assault. You're going to be gouging some stupid thug's eyes out, not having some cagefight.

      Comment


        #4
        No but practicing against other fighters teaches you timing and distance and how to take a hit and give a hit.
        Move along citizen ,nothing to see here !!!!!

        Comment


          #5
          I found one of Tegner's books in my parents' bookshelves when I was a little kid. I was going to read it, but decided I'd better not in case I got t3h d38dly and killed one of my little brothers.
          Originally posted by Emevas
          Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.

          Comment


            #6
            Sidandphil, you're arguing against a strawman. Are you familiar with the term? It means that rather than have a logical discussion, you've created an argument based on what you thought MaverickZ's position was, or rather than what you wanted it to be & then proceeded to argue against it.

            Thus, you're basically spewing what we like to call "bullshit". You're unable to contradict him logically.

            Try again.

            Comment


              #7
              Maybe I put a little bit of words into his mouth, but when your whole argument is one sentence long its tempting to do. I'm trying to respond to the notion that self defense is supposed to be about learning to fight which I think is misguided/bullshit.

              Comment


                #8
                And you're wrong.

                Hand to hand combat, be it in the ring, on the street, or on the battlefield, all require the same attributes. The individual training programs may differ due to different aims, but there will be more that is the same than different.

                A few tricks & gouges are less likely to save grandma's life than a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between.

                If you believe otherwise, I recommend leaving this website. You will not convince anyone, as we have all learned from experience that tricks & eye gouges just don't cut it.

                Comment


                  #9
                  How in blazes are you going to know if something is effective or not unless you work it with a live moving resisting opponent.
                  Obviously you cant eye gouge your training partner but you should be able to approximate it .

                  If you go your whole martial arts lifetime never being hit or hitting someone . when it comes to time to use it in a real life situation you will be lost because you will relie on your training and instinctively revert back to that.

                  Case in point in the 60s in california . There was a horrible shoot out involving 4 California Highway Patrolman who were killed by two bad guys.

                  In the hands of the dead patrolman they found spent shells , you know why ? because they were trained at the academy and at the range to catch their spent shells in their hands thus making it very difficult to reload their revolvers .This was before semi autos became standard issue.

                  Point is you will respond in a real life situation the way you train.
                  Last edited by foxguitar; 9/27/2008 4:37pm, .
                  Move along citizen ,nothing to see here !!!!!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I will agree with you that a long term training program addressing all kinds of combat situations and lots of sparring and dynamic practice is the ideal method to learning to fight. When I suggest eye gouges and knees I'm not talking about the way that I train, but the way that I think makes the most sense for a self defense class to teach. Simple things, the simpler the better.
                    The people who go to a self defense class don't want to dedicate a ton of time to this otherwise they would be in a martial art where they learn the stuff you're talking about. So it's different. You're ultimate goal isn't to make them great fighters but to give them a couple of fundamentally sound tools they can actually use without years of practice.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      but like any skill , use it or lose it.

                      Even in the Police Department , If we train to police a disorderly crowd or a riot , and we do train it once every three years. The first time there is a real riot , we wont know what the hell we are doing or it will take us inordinate amount of time to get situated.
                      But if we train on a regular basis when we need to do it in a real world situation we will quicker and more efficiently be able to make it work on a practical basis. To make anything work one must practice it regularly
                      Move along citizen ,nothing to see here !!!!!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
                        -Mentat Text Two (dicto)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
                          And you're wrong.

                          Hand to hand combat, be it in the ring, on the street, or on the battlefield, all require the same attributes. The individual training programs may differ due to different aims, but there will be more that is the same than different.

                          A few tricks & gouges are less likely to save grandma's life than a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between.

                          If you believe otherwise, I recommend leaving this website. You will not convince anyone, as we have all learned from experience that tricks & eye gouges just don't cut it.
                          This is the most retarded post I've ever seen you post, & there's been some pretty stiff competition. I don't even have time to discuss how impractical it is to expect senior citizens to practice "a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between."
                          Half of teaching seniors self defense (usually "tricks" and using force multipliers and tools such as canes, umbrellas and pepper spray) is to cause enough inconvenience or discomfort that the attacker/mugger will look for easier prey, and half TO MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER.
                          NOT to make them "a contender".
                          Pull your head out, man, & quit trying to be such a e-hard ass.
                          "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
                          ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

                          "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
                          ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

                          "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
                          ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jim_Jude View Post
                            This is the most retarded post I've ever seen you post, & there's been some pretty stiff competition.
                            You must not have been looking hard enough.

                            Originally posted by Jim_Jude View Post
                            I don't even have time to discuss how impractical it is to expect senior citizens to practice "a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between."
                            That's good, because I'll just talk about pushing hands with a 70-year old. Or the 80 year old I spent last weekend working on kali and Jeet Kune Do with at Paul Vunak's training camp.

                            Be sure you're not attacking strawmen. Make sure you're reading what I actually say, and not what you're wishing I'd say.

                            Originally posted by Jim_Jude View Post
                            Half of teaching seniors self defense (usually "tricks" and using force multipliers and tools such as canes, umbrellas and pepper spray) is to cause enough inconvenience or discomfort that the attacker/mugger will look for easier prey, and half TO MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER.
                            NOT to make them "a contender".
                            No one said anything about making anyone a contender EXCEPT FOR YOU.

                            Originally posted by Jim_Jude View Post
                            Pull your head out, man, & quit trying to be such a e-hard ass.
                            Are you bored today? Looking for a fight?

                            OK.

                            We can play.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
                              You must not have been looking hard enough.



                              That's good, because I'll just talk about pushing hands with a 70-year old. Or the 80 year old I spent last weekend working on kali and Jeet Kune Do with at Paul Vunak's training camp.
                              Yeah, because your two examples are representative of what most 70 & 80yo folks are capable of....

                              Be sure you're not attacking strawmen. Make sure you're reading what I actually say, and not what you're wishing I'd say.
                              I know what you said.
                              "A few tricks & gouges are less likely to save grandma's life than a progressive, alive training program that addresses all modes of combat, armed, grappling, striking, the clinch, & everything in between."
                              Isn't this what you said? What was your point, then? If the vast majority of senior citizens can't (or won't) keep up with your comprehensive demands for what is more likely "to save grandma's life", then what can you recommend? OF COURSE a widely comprehensive training program is better than tricks, but NOT if the geriatric individual can't do it. Remember who you're talking about. Sometimes it's not about the ground-n-pound but instead teaching Grandma the best places to stick 'em with her hat pin...
                              "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
                              ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

                              "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
                              ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

                              "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
                              ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

                              Comment

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