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    #16
    Originally posted by Punisher View Post
    If you want put limits and restrictions on what "real" BJJ is and what it means to have a legitmate ranking that's fine with me.
    exactly what, then, is a ranking system?

    IMO, such restrictions will be harmful to the integrity of the ranking system and the art in the long run.

    Each qualifier an art has to add to make their ranking more specifc and exclusionary is one more step down the path of bullshido.
    WTF? a black belt is exclusive and specific So is a Master of Sport in Sambo. That is what sets apart a flailing noob from an experienced gamer.

    It starts with restricting BJJ ranking to grappling skill with a gi. That leads to restricting it to grappling a particular way while wearing a gi, supplmented by competition rules that encourage people to favor certain strategies and/or techniques regardless of their effectiveness outside that particular ruleset.
    yeah, no shit. That how you classify a system. There is no such thing as no-jacket Sambo, there is no such thing as Sumo with kickboxing mixed in, Kali with a rubber-hose, etc

    Soon you get to the point where ranking requirements stop being indicative skill and instead become what whoever is in charge at the time's idea of what should be needed to obtain and/or sufficently prove that skill, i.e. minumum time requirements, winning a specified number of matches at specific list of approved tournaments.
    now you're supporting the arguments against ranking Rashad?

    Each step of the way you pose the risk of excluding people with superior combative skills from ranking, simply because they haven't filled out all the boxes on a the approved checklist yet. The common argrument is that is better for 100 qualified people to not get their rank than one unqualified person to recieve one.

    You eventually get to the point where the ranking is so specfic it loses all meaning outside that particular art and people interested in developing combative skill cease to seek ranking in your art altogether.
    street vs sport?
    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)

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      #17
      Originally posted by jnp View Post
      What?
      huh?

      ....I think I said "Focke-U!" were you listening jnp?
      Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
      -Mentat Text Two (dicto)

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        #18
        Originally posted by Gidi View Post
        Randy Couture's 1st 2 fights in the UFC ended with a submission victory for him (if I'm not mistaken, haven't seen them in a while) and he was JUST a wrestler. he did say in a later interview (not a quote just how I remember it) "I think all wrestlers basically know how to choke someone".

        It could also have something to do with the simple fact that Randy is devine.

        The word indicating godliness is Divine. It is pedantic and I apologise, but Devine is the last name of a particularly offensive opinion journalist in Australia who manages to boil my blood no matter what topic she writes about and linking Randy with her makes me shudder in disgust.
        GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
        Originally posted by Devil
        I think Battlefields and I had a spirited discussion once about who was the biggest narcissist. We both wanted the title but at the end of the day I had to concede defeat. Can't win 'em all.
        Originally posted by BackFistMonkey
        I <3 Battlefields...

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          #19
          Originally posted by egg-nog puke View Post
          huh?

          ....I think I said "Focke-U!" were you listening jnp?
          Probably not. I seem to be having some reading comprehension issues today.
          Shut the hell up and train.

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            #20
            Originally posted by battlefields View Post
            The word indicating godliness is Divine. It is pedantic and I apologise, but Devine is the last name of a particularly offensive opinion journalist in Australia who manages to boil my blood no matter what topic she writes about and linking Randy with her makes me shudder in disgust.
            Fair enough. I think I know how to spell it and it was more of a typo but thanks for the correction anyway.
            In my defense English is my 3rd language (tooting my own horn), and I'm generally pretty good at it, but I'm always trying to get better, so thanks again.

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              #21
              Originally posted by egg-nog puke View Post
              exactly what, then, is a ranking system?

              WTF? a black belt is exclusive and specific So is a Master of Sport in
              Sambo. That is what sets apart a flailing noob from an experienced gamer.
              It is whatever whoever is in charge of the martial art wants it to be. For me rankings should primarily indicators of combative skill, in this case grappling. If someone is a BB in BJJ or Judo or a Master of Sport in Sambo it indicatees to me the have achieved a very high level of skill in grappling.




              Originally posted by egg-nog puke View Post

              yeah, no shit. That how you classify a system. There is no such thing as no-jacket Sambo, there is no such thing as Sumo with kickboxing mixed in, Kali with a rubber-hose, etc

              Each art/sport has their own focus on grappling as a whole, however the primary goal, or at least one of them, is to develop grappling skill. Obiviously certain things are going to cross the boundries between various systems.

              My opinion is that is your grappling is good it will work no matter what clothes you are wearing and rankings should be indicators of skill with the least amount of qualifiers necessary.

              There may be no such thing as no-jacket Sambo, but there is no-gi BJJ. The fact that it is possible for someone to be both a world champion in no-gi BJJ but not be "worthy" of official BJJ ranking because they have no interest gi grappling seems silly to me, like one Kail practioner not recognizing another because he uses a stick made out of a different kind of wood.

              When people get so concerned about keeping their art "pure" they often lose sight of the big picture of what their art was intended to be in the first place.


              Originally posted by egg-nog puke View Post
              now you're supporting the arguments against ranking Rashad?
              I wasn't supporting anything. Things like time requirements and having official lists of approved tournments are things that often start off with best intentions but quickly get perverted. Minimum time requirements fail to acknowledge that we are all individuals and unjustly hold exceptional ones back. Limiting which tournaments count toward your ranking resume can get poltical and lead to competitiions being exclued for bullshit reasons.

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                #22
                That is more clear, but I know my leglocks and pick-up techniques won't get me a BB in Judo. I see the assertion about what makes a better/more competetive fighter and a big chunk of the Gracie system is headed towards Mcd0j0 but there is a tradition worth preserving.

                If you teach Five Animals, is there not a ranking system for it based on the history and development of the style? There is a pollution that can come from too much emphasis on competetive outcomes. Judo has been having this debate to the point of nauseum. But a detriment is that you get black belts who have the 2-3 techs they can count on in competetion but little skill outside of that. I guess it goes back to "what is a BB for anyway?" debate.

                Wrestling is as old as dirt, but "overall" grappling skill can be tricky: what works for Schwingen won't work for a cage-fight. A victory doesn't necessarily tell te story of a bout. Mark Kerr arguably out-grappled JJ Machado but it had to be one of the most boring fights this side of Severn vs Kimo III.

                As far as limiting tournaments, yes politics can be involved. There are also douchebags out there who have competed in canned tournaments or accepted medals for no-show brackets and etc. So I think it's a more faceted issue.
                Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
                -Mentat Text Two (dicto)

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Punisher View Post
                  It is whatever whoever is in charge of the martial art wants it to be. For me rankings should primarily indicators of combative skill, in this case grappling. If someone is a BB in BJJ or Judo or a Master of Sport in Sambo it indicatees to me the have achieved a very high level of skill in grappling.

                  Each art/sport has their own focus on grappling as a whole, however the primary goal, or at least one of them, is to develop grappling skill. Obiviously certain things are going to cross the boundries between various systems.

                  My opinion is that is your grappling is good it will work no matter what clothes you are wearing and rankings should be indicators of skill with the least amount of qualifiers necessary...

                  The fact that it is possible for someone to be both a world champion in no-gi BJJ but not be "worthy" of official BJJ ranking because they have no interest gi grappling seems silly to me, like one Kail practioner not recognizing another because he uses a stick made out of a different kind of wood.
                  Well it's nice that you have your fantasy-based little opinions, but as someone who trains Gi and No-Gi, and as someone who competes Gi and No-Gi, I can 100% say the clothing you wear DOES fucking matter.

                  There are some people who's games are very reliant on an amount of clothing/lack of clothing, and there are some people who have two different games they use depending on the situation, and then there are some people who's games seem to span the difference.

                  Just because the last group of people exist, doesn't mean anyone who's good or even AMAZING no-gi is inherently gonna be able to hold their own in a Gi. And vice versa. The only reason I think a BB should be exclusive to a Gi is because BELTS ARE FOR FUCKING GIS! If Rashad wants to be a BB in BJJ, then let it be no-gi BJJ. I'm betting, though of course i'm not certain, that if you threw him in a jacket and pants, he'd have a lot of troubles. As would anyone who doesn't train in a gi, regardless of the years you have on the mat in spandex.

                  Oh and your analogy sucks, because it's essentially like doing Kali with no sticks at all, not of a different kind of wood. Yes, they can both swing their arms in an offensive manner, but the scenarios DO change when you add a tool like sticks or the gi.
                  Originally posted by Punisher View Post
                  There may be no such thing as no-jacket Sambo, but there is no-gi BJJ.
                  Actually not really. As it is an art that was developed in the gi for the gi, and as the largest sanctioning body (IBJJF) requires competitors to have one on, no-gi grappling is no more BJJ than Greco Roman is Judo. NOTA BENE: I am not, nor would I ever, insist that people not train without a gi, or develop gi-centric games. Not my philosophy. But if you want to wear a belt and say it's for BJJ, then you train in the gi, just as you do for Judo, Kyokushin Karate, and a bunch of other shit.
                  Originally posted by Sarcastro
                  He screams like a little girl as the pain ripples through his arm, shoots up into his brain, and now your dick is hard.


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                    #24
                    The only people who'll say that there isn't a big difference between Gi and No-Gi grappling are people who haven't trained/competed significantly in both of them. That's my observation so far.

                    Do you really think that the whole "the gi mopping up sweat" comment is some sort of bs that we throw out? No.
                    Originally posted by Newb1

                    B) I could not beat a Judoka with Aikido. I could only beat an Aikidoka with Aikido. I thought that was understook.

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                      #25
                      At the very least, it completely changes the way you wrestle from the feet for a takedown.
                      Originally posted by Sarcastro
                      He screams like a little girl as the pain ripples through his arm, shoots up into his brain, and now your dick is hard.


                      Comment


                        #26
                        Ignore Punisher. He knows dick about grappling or mma.

                        I don't think seeing little bjj-esque grappling from him in his MMA fights is necessarily indicative of him not having such skills. There are plenty of BJJ black belts who rarely show any of it in their fights (no, not talking about Gurgel).

                        That said, I don't see Rashad doing anything other than winning by takedowns in a grappling competition against good guys.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by UpaLumpa View Post
                          Ignore Punisher. He knows dick about grappling or mma.

                          I don't think seeing little bjj-esque grappling from him in his MMA fights is necessarily indicative of him not having such skills. There are plenty of BJJ black belts who rarely show any of it in their fights (no, not talking about Gurgel).

                          That said, I don't see Rashad doing anything other than winning by takedowns in a grappling competition against good guys.
                          Dammit, why didn't I think of that myself. I was just talking about Gurgel with my friends during Open Mat on Friday. Gotta love that guy and how he represents BJJ to all the players out there!

                          Talk about a sticky situation, indeed. I was wondering when this thread would come out. During the Evans/Silva fight, they kept talking about how Evans got his belt from Rolles. They pumped it up a lot. During the fight, I didn't see a lot of BJJ from Evans. Then again, I didn't see that much of it from Silva either. It's only because Evans took him down repeatedly that we saw the little that we did.

                          Honestly, you could say that the two things that make BJJ, well, BJJ is really less about Gi/No-Gi and more about the Guard and Guard Passing. In my opinion that is the two things that seperates BJJ from all the other grappling arts out there. That emphasis on the Guard and Guard Passing. Mind you, it isn't the end-all-be-all but it will definitely give you an idea of someone's skill level in BJJ by looking at those two aspects of it. I would like to see his skill level in these two fields.

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                            #28
                            Check out the interview w/ Rolles: http://www.graciemag.com/en/2010/01/...rolles-gracie/


                            So there you have it...Rashad is bad ass on the ground...but don't ask him for any advice on collar chokes.

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