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Knife disarming.Systema seminar with Mikhail Ryabko in Moscow

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  • DdlR
    replied
    Originally posted by Sri Hanuman View Post
    The footage dialogue doesn't really explain what's going on, other than 0:16 "prepare to block him," and even that's not telling much.
    Thanks, that's something, at least. I'm hoping that the full video includes enough narration or at least background conversation that we'll be able to date it and put it into context.

    Consider, during that era, guys like Kashpirovski and Chumak, distance healers who claimed to have healing powers through the television, and had MASS followings were considered to be utterly the real deal. Taking that into account, this perfectly fits the bill of what Coach Tripp describes as flim flammery prominent at a time when people were losing hope, and falling into utter chaos and depression.
    Yes, absolutely. I hope it's clear by now that we're all agreeing on that basic fact; again, read Ronson's "The Men Who Stare at Goats" for an insight into the US army version (likewise, beginning in a time of chaotic depression, in that case just post-Vietnam War). The fact that the Russians seem to have extended the "psychic warrior" theme into martial arts training is fascinating to me, from a social history perspective.

    My offer of translating the footage still stands. I can post my former credentials as an interpreter, if needed.
    Cool. My wife also speaks Russian; I'm hoping that we'll be able to pull together a good translation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sri Hanuman
    replied
    The footage dialogue doesn't really explain what's going on, other than 0:16 "prepare to block him," and even that's not telling much.

    Consider, during that era, guys like Kashpirovski and Chumak, distance healers who claimed to have healing powers through the television, and had MASS followings were considered to be utterly the real deal. Taking that into account, this perfectly fits the bill of what Coach Tripp describes as flim flammery prominent at a time when people were losing hope, and falling into utter chaos and depression.

    My offer of translating the footage still stands. I can post my former credentials as an interpreter, if needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • DdlR
    replied
    Originally posted by Tonuzaba View Post
    DdIR,

    I'm not trying to be a d*ck and I do respect your personal view as well as your persistence to get a translation of the tape, but...

    Personally I do not think basketballing people while teaching an MA seminar/class can be explained/justified by ANY interest in history of military psy-ops...

    Unless it was a seminar focused on the possible directions the psy-ops approach went during the 1980-ies, which - correct me if I'm wrong - was officially never the topic of any Systema seminar. They are presented as self-defence/fighting skills classes, right?
    Systema classes are presented as self defense/fighting skills classes. I don't know what the context of the "Troopa" footage is, because we still haven't had it translated.

    Of the three clips we've seen so far, this one is the most interesting to me:

    YouTube- tropa1

    My take on what's going on: "No-contact fighting": what is REALLY going on? - No BS MMA and Martial Arts and http://www.illusiongenius.com/articles/11-2002-03.html . I know that most people won't bother to read those links or pause to consider them, so I include them FWIW. I don't know how or even if this footage is connected to Ryabko or Systema, but I find it really interesting in itself.

    The other two excerpts look like variations on standard Systema "following" drills, performed as sensitivity training. Going by the laughter in the background, my best guess is that Ryabko was in a playful mood; again, I'd want to see these clips in their original context, with translation.

    Leave a comment:


  • CrackFox
    replied
    Originally posted by Tonuzaba View Post
    Also, talking about military use, use of weapons or blades - is there any evidence of Systema being actually taught to any active military units in Russia or abroad?
    This is a question I'd like answered.

    Leave a comment:


  • rw4th
    replied
    Originally posted by DdlR View Post
    I was not "hinting that the effectiveness of Systema had been tested on prisoners", that was something that you read into my answers. However, that does explain why you've had difficulty following my argument, because apparently you were assuming that I was trying to make a non-existent connection. I guess that's some sort of progress.
    I was responding to this:

    Since Systema was (again IMO) originally developed for some pretty sinister purposes (KGB "disappearances", bodyguarding some very nasty characters, etc.) they're between a rock and a hard place;
    Since you then segued into the prisoner testing discussion I assumed your point was related to the origin of Systema since that is what was being discussed. My bad if that wasn't your intent but I'm still left wondering why you think the topic was related.

    Leave a comment:


  • DdlR
    replied
    Originally posted by rw4th View Post
    Then what was the point of this whole tangent then?

    You seemed to be hinting that the effectiveness of Systema had been tested on prisoners, which itself is a bit of a leap since I doubt prisoners dragged from the gulag would offer up much resistance (neither would soldiers or paramilitary policemen being hazed for that matter).

    So yes, Russian military culture is rough. What does all this have to do with the fact that stuff like what is demonstrated in the video in post #1 is pure bullshit?
    The point was that you asked the question:

    Originally posted by rw4th
    You can seriously say this with a straight face? After every BS "prison" and "special forces" system that has ever reared it's misshapen head has been exposed as fraudulent you can honestly say that that what I just quoted is likely?
    I was not "hinting that the effectiveness of Systema had been tested on prisoners", that was something that you read into my answers. However, that does explain why you've had difficulty following my argument, because apparently you were assuming that I was trying to make a non-existent connection. I guess that's some sort of progress.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tonuzaba
    replied
    DdIR,

    I'm not trying to be a d*ck and I do respect your personal view as well as your persistence to get a translation of the tape, but...

    Personally I do not think basketballing people while teaching an MA seminar/class can be explained/justified by ANY interest in history of military psy-ops...

    Unless it was a seminar focused on the possible directions the psy-ops approach went during the 1980-ies, which - correct me if I'm wrong - was officially never the topic of any Systema seminar. They are presented as self-defence/fighting skills classes, right?

    In that subtext what I've seen on the video(s) is simply useless, and wilfully misleading to MA-inexperienced laymen.

    The only way I can imagine Systema techniques (as presented by all the online video evidence provided by the grandmasters and masters themselves) being used to terrorise people is the by playing the "good guy" on the tortured ones until the "bad guy" comes, seriously hurting them (using something else than Systema, obviously).

    Also, talking about military use, use of weapons or blades - is there any evidence of Systema being actually taught to any active military units in Russia or abroad?

    Leave a comment:


  • devilboy7778
    replied
    Originally posted by Rafael View Post
    However...

    - Let's accept that the presentation of systema, and especially of Ryabko systema over the internet is rather weird.

    - Let's accept that the style is doing itself no favor with the entire psycho warrior crap.

    - Let's accept that the style lacks any substantial proof of effectiveness - no famous tournament fighters that do systema, no reliable accounts of systema having any value in a fight/sd situation, no recognition by any official body of government/military/LE/whatever.

    But let's accept TOO that a fighter's style doesn't always give reliable info about his abilities; there can be gems in the dirt everywhere.

    I'd accept that as all good points. Hopefully some of that will chance.

    Leave a comment:


  • DdlR
    replied
    Originally posted by JavaRonin View Post

    *I question this because, as far as I can tell, what's presented as Systema looks defensive in nature and not an effective hazing method. I seriously doubt the KGB was throwing imaginary bowling balls at gulag inmates. Again, I've read Solzhenitsyn's works and the material of other former gulag inmates and I've never read of anything remotely close to psychic warfare experiments. Hot water up the ass and broken fingers? Yes. Death noogies from ten feet away? They probably wished.
    You're confusing two different topics.

    Kukla training was inflicted upon gulag prisoners during the Cold War, and IMO has been perpetuated as vicious hazing/technique testing in modern Russian police/military culture.

    "Psychic combat" exercises were part of the so-called "Mind Wars" programs carried out by both the US and USSR armies circa 1970-1990.

    Leave a comment:


  • rw4th
    replied
    Originally posted by DdlR View Post
    On the off-chance that this wasn't clear, I'm not saying that Systema was developed as a result of the kukla training ... (?)
    Then what was the point of this whole tangent then?

    You seemed to be hinting that the effectiveness of Systema had been tested on prisoners, which itself is a bit of a leap since I doubt prisoners dragged from the gulag would offer up much resistance (neither would soldiers or paramilitary policemen being hazed for that matter).

    So yes, Russian military culture is rough. What does all this have to do with the fact that stuff like what is demonstrated in the video in post #1 is pure bullshit?

    Leave a comment:


  • DdlR
    replied
    Originally posted by Sri Hanuman View Post
    DdlR, I'm not trying to be a dick or a sophist, but I'm at a genuine loss for what you are trying to say. I'm sorry if it's obvious, but I just don't see it.
    OK, thanks - that's reasonable.

    It would help me to be clear if I understood what you guys already know about the "real" history of SAMBO, which is obviously not the same as the official Soviet-era history. The latter basically goes, "Great Soviet patriot Anatoly Kharlampiev traveled all over Mother Russia, learned many wrestling styles and combined them into the glorious SAMBO wrestling".

    Closer to the truth, IMO, are:

    http://www.judo-for-self-defense.com/sambo.html (follow the links ...)
    http://stratfordsombo.tripod.com/art...history-2.html
    Spiridonov and Samoz a brief history for those that - No BS MMA and Martial Arts
    http://www.no-gi-grappling.com/sambo.html

    Most germane to the topics we're discussing are references to Oshchepkov, Spiridonov, SAMOZ and Kadochnikov. I think that the various styles of modern Systema are evolutions of Spiridonov's SAMOZ, and thus that Systema can be considered as another specialized offshoot of SAMBO. Whether or not it should be rather depends on perspective. I think that the modern revival is largely, but not exclusively via Kadochnikov, with aspects of SAMOZ having been previously folded back and forth between the different specializations of SAMBO for several generations.

    As I've already said, the kukla and KGB nastiness tie-ins are speculative; I use them as examples of some of the reasons why, IMO, Ryabko and Vasiliev are not forthcoming about the real historical origins of what they practice. I think that there are also commercial and political dimensions to that reluctance.

    Once again:

    Originally posted by DdlR
    Basically, IMO, a lot of modern Russians are trying hard to forget that most of the 20th century ever happened, so you get this quasi-Romantic "back to our roots" cultural movement.
    Rather than linking themselves to the nastiness of the Soviet era, with its "disappearances" (including that of SAMBO founder Vasilii Oshchepkov), kukla training, general record of brutal human rights abuses, etc., I suspect that Ryabko and Vasiliev deliberately chose to generalize their history, referring instead to pre-October Revolution folk-history. Again, this is just a theory on my part.
    Last edited by DdlR; 1/05/2010 2:53pm, .

    Leave a comment:


  • Mtripp
    replied
    Just to be clear....

    Both Peter Popoff and Benny Hinn have been caught using magic tricks to make people believe they are seeing miracles from God. No question, no spin, caught dead to rights.

    Yet, both still have active ministries and Hinn is on ALL of the Christian networks.

    Now, I don't care if what they are saying is DEAD ON correct (for a Bible believing person) I would NEVER listen to them again, because of what they were caught doing. The trust is gone.

    When someone in MA's gets into the Psychic clap-trap, I really don't care much what they are saying or doing after that.

    The fatuous notion that somehow what we are seeing is not what we are seeing, and we lack the insight to understand the evidence of our eyes, its all flummery.

    But to the true believers, that simply doesn't matter.

    Leave a comment:


  • JavaRonin
    replied
    I'm also sincerely trying to understand what point you're making with the hazing-Systema connection, DdlR.

    Leave a comment:


  • JavaRonin
    replied
    I'm not seeing how we go from...

    POINT 1:
    The Russian military/KGB has been/is run by brutal thugs.

    POINT 2:
    *Systema is a means of beating up people.

    CONCLUSION(?):
    It makes sense some bad Russian military/KGB dudes invented Systema during the Soviet period.

    Since the current guys promoting Systema are military men, it's more easily imaginable that a couple of brutal thugs created this formalized system after the fall of the Communism to cash in on the combatives fad.

    *I question this because, as far as I can tell, what's presented as Systema looks defensive in nature and not an effective hazing method. I seriously doubt the KGB was throwing imaginary bowling balls at gulag inmates. Again, I've read Solzhenitsyn's works and the material of other former gulag inmates and I've never read of anything remotely close to psychic warfare experiments. Hot water up the ass and broken fingers? Yes. Death noogies from ten feet away? They probably wished.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sri Hanuman
    replied
    DdlR, I'm not trying to be a dick or a sophist, but I'm at a genuine loss for what you are trying to say. I'm sorry if it's obvious, but I just don't see it.

    Leave a comment:

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