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Knife disarming.Systema seminar with Mikhail Ryabko in Moscow

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    #91
    Originally posted by devilboy7778 View Post
    I believe the reason why we are hearing about it now is because it was forbidden to teach it to foreigners. i.e. the guy who was assassinated probably because he was teaching...
    EXCUSE ME...

    You "believe" something about a martial art you're just about to start to study?!?
    :eusa_doh:
    Who cares?

    Besides, "forbidden to teach", give me a break. Russian deadliness is based on 2 main pillars: information and AK47. Not Systema, trust me.

    CLICK & WATCH
    :
    I got BULLSHIDO ON TV!!!

    "Bruce Lee sucks because I slammed my nuts with nunchucks trying to do that stupid shit back in the day. I still managed to have two kids. I forgive you Bruce.
    " - by Vorpal

    Comment


      #92
      You know, I have kept a respectful tone. Lets to it YOUR way...

      <<<Over the past 5 years or so I've posted many, many clips of Systema people sparring in ways that are more likely to be understood as sparring by a few more people on this board. You can look them up if you feel like it.>>

      I have, so have many others here. How is that working out for you?

      <<<No-one? Really? More to the point, are you seriously suggesting that Systema was named after a reference in a Batman comic book? Really?>>>

      Really, why not answer the question? We have a great many books from the Cold War and NONE of them speak about "The system." Moreover, we have MANY legitimate old-school Russian Military people (Igor Yakimov to name one) who never heard of this either.

      So, really, so me ANYTHING IN PRINT that predates the book...

      <<<I mean, how do you imagine that happened? Were Kadochnikov and Ryabko sitting around in their treehouse circa 1988, reading up on the latest black market Batman comic from the capitalist dog USA, when inspiration suddenly struck? "That KGBEast, he is a machine, da? Hey, Mikhail, let us name our fighting after what it is he does! We will make a million rubles!">>>

      Straw man and you know it. More likely they knew Barnum was right, and in the US mystic mind set world his number was low.

      THE QUESTION, because you seem to keep ignoring it, is show me ONE printed US reference to this mystic russian system that pre-dates the Comic book. If it is such a silly claim, refute it.

      <<<Well, when you finally did manage to get some excerpts from Troopa online, I was fascinated and even offered, several times, to co-ordinate a translation project, so we could find out what was being said on the video (instead of, y'know, jumping to conclusions based on guesswork)>>

      Yes, it is VERY hard to guess what is going on when the guy in this thread who you say is going to teach us knife defense, lines up men like bowling pins, then rolls an invisible bowling ball and they all fall down. Yep, likely LOTS of ways to jump to a conclusion there. Or how about the invisible basketball bit?

      For the record, I DID NOT publish it on line, that was left to others. Their speed, or lack thereof, is up to them. In truth it is there, if you have evidence it is something else, please provide it. You could contact the people with the tape, as I gave it to them. Why don't you?

      <<<Unfortunately, I never heard back from you on that; you mostly seemed to be disappointed that your thread hadn't created as much of a splash as you were expecting.>>>

      Here is an example of that Russian Psychic stuff, and of course, its dead wrong. I don't give a crap what you spend your time doing. Splash? What I posted from the Underground was well over 10 years old, AND YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED IT. So, why not stay on point, the insult stuff for the monitor is just silly and sad.

      <<<I'm afraid that I can't bring myself to take the "Batman problem" seriously enough to bother addressing it>>>

      Spoken like a true master of Bullshido. Change the subject quickly.

      On the other hand, let me know when I can check out those claims of knowing the color of paper by touch alone... you know the ones made in several places. The ones Randi is offering ONE MILLION DOLLARS if they can do it.

      Or, and what an odd thought, why not have one of these people show up at a throwdown, and show us how well this stuff works against those of use who lack a mystic mind set?

      Hell, get into an MMA match and I am sure the Batman thing won't matter at all.

      Hope that cleared it all up....
      "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC

      Comment


        #93
        Originally posted by DdlR View Post


        Really?

        I mean, how do you imagine that happened? Were Kadochnikov and Ryabko sitting around in their treehouse circa 1988, reading up on the latest black market Batman comic from the capitalist dog USA, when inspiration suddenly struck? "That KGBEast, he is a machine, da? Hey, Mikhail, let us name our fighting after what it is he does! We will make a million rubles!"
        Back in the day when they first started peddling Larry Curly Moe Do Fu, a million rubles exchanged for about 12 bucks. You have a point here, though. They couldn't have possibly have pulled their material from the KGBeast. If they did, then what they created would have been a lot more believable.

        Comment


          #94
          Zing!

          Comment


            #95
            If someone can direct me to a video link of Tropa, I can translate. Should be good for a laugh.
            =================
            Kama Sutra blue belt.

            Originally posted by Emevas
            I used to fuck guys like you in prison.
            Originally posted by Rock Ape
            Dude I kill people for a fucking living.

            Dipshit

            Comment


              #96
              Originally posted by Little Lamb View Post
              DdlR,

              I think you are a fantastic Bullshido member. I'm more of a browser than an active poster, but I often read your interesting posts on a variety of topics.
              Thank you.

              Having said that, I also believe that regardless of what a Troopa translation could reveal, you would continue to create justifications and excuses for the what appears to be a clear case of soviet style chi ball flim flam.
              Nope. Here are some chunks of what I said about this last time:

              Originally posted by DdlR
              If these exercises were being presented as "telekinetic self defense that could be reliably used against an uncooperative opponent" then we can all join hands and chant BS. If they were were being presented as an experimental confluence of MA training and hypnotism, which is (IMO) what they actually were, then we'd be missing the point by accusing them of quackery.

              On the other hand, it's also possible that they noticed and developed the phenomenon without actually deciding what was causing it.
              Originally posted by DdlR
              I dismissed Systema for several years on the basis of what I took to be Yellow Bamboo-type "telekinetic"/chi demos seen in some of the video clips, until discussions on this forum forced me to look much deeper into the history and training context.

              If we look at this sort of footage while wearing our civilian martial arts glasses, then we naturally assume that it's intended to be a demonstration of telekinetic self defense; some sort of bizarre pseudoscience or outright con-job. We scoff mightily because it's obviously delusional or fraudulent.

              If we take off the civilian MA glasses and look at it in the context of the Soviet "mind wars" experiments, i.e. an aspect of military PSYOPS - then it becomes simultaneously much more interesting both from the historical and technical points of view. Take for granted that it's impossible to literally move objects or people with one's mind, and recall that during the early 1980s American soldiers were staring at goats in an attempt to stop their hearts by force of will. Where might the Soviets have taken similar experiments?

              Bear in mind also that both SAMBO and Systema evolved over the best part of a hundred years via what was, AFAIK, the only time a national government has devoted long-term funds and co-ordination towards developing a martial arts training program (Spiridonov's SAMOZ, etc.) The Dinamo Institute project represented decades of experimental collaboration between sports psychologists, behaviorists, physicians, physical education instructors, etc.

              During that time and in that pressure-cooker environment, I can easily see all manner of experiments taking place. Assume that they noticed a confluence between "sleight-of-body" fighting techniques (feints, fake-outs, subtle weight-shifting and sensitivity skills, etc.) and hypnosis, and ran with that; maybe that's what we're seeing in the Tropa footage.

              Even at the conjectural level, it's a fascinating topic ...
              Originally posted by DdlR
              I'm taking for granted that telekinesis, etc. are impossible and asking whether the demos in the Troopa footage were being presented as telekinesis or as something else. It comes down to what we actually mean by BS.

              A) If the participants genuinely believed that they were moving people/being moved by telekinetic force, then they were deluded; BS #1.

              B) If they were deliberately colluding to create the illusion of telekinetic force, then they were being fraudulent; BS #2.

              C) If they did not believe that a supernatural force was involved, i.e. they were demonstrating an unusual combination of martial arts/unarmed combat and "hypnotism", then they may have been neither delusional nor fraudulent, in which case, no BS.

              If we look at the footage without knowing that context and assume A) or B), then we may be missing the point. Even more so, if we jump to the conclusion that we're watching a demonstration of "psychic self defense techniques". These demos/drills may have been experiments in conditioned reflex, deliberately compliant combat movement/sensitivity exercises, or (more likely, IMO) a partially-defined combination of all of the above.

              This is complicated by the fact that Systema (as a fighting skill) makes heavy use of feints and fake-outs anyway, and that compliancy is often (not always, it depends on the drill) a deliberate goal of the training; the "attacker" practices folding, collapsing etc. away from the impact/pressure applied by the defender, for the sake of safety.

              Somewhere in the questions of conscious vs. unconscious compliancy, the difference between "psychic" and "psych-out", the issue of "fighting technique demo" vs. "PSYOP experiment", etc., we may learn something interesting about the Soviet "mind wars" training during the 1980s, as applied to the martial arts.
              On the off-chance that this is TL;DR, I grant BS (either via delusion or fraud) as being two of the three most likely explanations for what we're seeing in the video. The third of those is not "OMFG they'z PSYCHICK!!", it's the suggestion that they may have been deliberately experimenting with a combination of martial arts and hypnotism.

              I have no dog in that fight; to me, the fact that this type of training took place is fascinating, regardless of whether or not they literally thought they were "psychic". That's why I was pushing to have the narrated portions of the tape translated; context is gold, and without that we're guessing.
              Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.

              Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by Mtripp
                I have, so have many others here. How is that working out for you?
                Good. The next step is to try to understand them. I'll help, if you like, though my patience on this subject isn't as great as it was a few years ago.

                I'm sorry, but I can't believe that you're really serious about this Batman comic theory. If you're trying to point out that Systema didn't really originate with "ancient Russian Cossack knights", and so-on, I'm way ahead of you, and I've posted in some depth on what I believe are the actual, historical origins of the System, which are much more interesting.

                Yes, it is VERY hard to guess what is going on when the guy in this thread who you say is going to teach us knife defense, lines up men like bowling pins, then rolls an invisible bowling ball and they all fall down. Yep, likely LOTS of ways to jump to a conclusion there. Or how about the invisible basketball bit?
                You obviously have an unshakable faith in your own guesses on that subject. Is that why you never responded to my repeated offers to have the narration translated, so we could (hopefully) get to the bottom of this and stop guessing?

                For the record, I DID NOT publish it on line, that was left to others.

                Their speed, or lack thereof, is up to them. In truth it is there, if you have evidence it is something else, please provide it. You could contact the people with the tape, as I gave it to them. Why don't you?
                You mean Ken? I didn't push the issue because I assumed he had his reasons not to respond. I'd further assumed that you still had a copy of the actual tape, which is what I was (and still am) most interested in, re. getting a clean track of the narration towards having it translated.

                Now we have an offer from Sri Hanuman to do a translation - I really hope it happens this time.

                <<<I'm afraid that I can't bring myself to take the "Batman problem" seriously enough to bother addressing it>>>

                Spoken like a true master of Bullshido. Change the subject quickly.
                As long as I can take a point seriously, I can address it in absolutely agonizing detail. As it happens, I don't take the Batman theory seriously.

                On the other hand, let me know when I can check out those claims of knowing the color of paper by touch alone... you know the ones made in several places. The ones Randi is offering ONE MILLION DOLLARS if they can do it.
                Are you talking about Trevor Robinson's "Mind Warrior" article? I contacted him about six years ago and asked him about the "psychic color sensing" experiments, etc. He admitted that he had been under pressure from the editors of the magazine he was writing for and had filled in the blanks of his own experience with "bioplasmic energy theories" put to paper by a Russian scientist who had no connection to Systema at all.

                The various "psychic" exercises cited in Mr. Robinson's article were, in fact, derived from a question and answer section in a Systema handbook, in which Vasiliev was describing some of the experiments he had been ordered to take part in while serving in the Russian army. Again, the historical context is of the '70s and '80s "mind wars" tests being carried out in both the US and USSR militaries - I highly recommend Jon Ronson's book, "The Men who Stare at Goats", for a fascinating insight into what the US Army was doing along those lines at that time. Good movie, too, by the way.

                Or, and what an odd thought, why not have one of these people show up at a throwdown, and show us how well this stuff works against those of use who lack a mystic mind set?
                Bullshido member HanktheTank showed up repping Systema at a throwdown in Toronto a couple of years ago, and did just fine. IIRC he won all of his matches. It was very thoroughly discussed at the time, links to YouTube videos, the works. The vids are still up, if you're interested. Obviously, though, all that proves is that Hank was able to adapt his training to friendly sparring at a throwdown. Perhaps others will do that as well.
                Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.

                Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by DdlR View Post

                  Bullshido member HanktheTank showed up repping Systema at a throwdown in Toronto a couple of years ago, and did just fine. IIRC he won all of his matches. It was very thoroughly discussed at the time, links to YouTube videos, the works. The vids are still up, if you're interested. Obviously, though, all that proves is that Hank was able to adapt his training to friendly sparring at a throwdown. Perhaps others will do that as well.
                  Wow I'd actually really like to see that. Its on the throwdown section?

                  Comment


                    #99
                    <<<I'm sorry, but I can't believe that you're really serious about this Batman comic theory. If you're trying to point out that Systema didn't really originate with "ancient Russian Cossack knights", and so-on, I'm way ahead of you, and I've posted in some depth on what I believe are the actual, historical origins of the System, which are much more interesting.>>>

                    I find it more interesting that you insist on making me say something I did not. I only asked for ONE SINGLE SOURCE that predates the book. I did NOT infer or imply it was created from the book. After all, if as you say "context" is everything, why doesn't it matter that a comic book taking about the russian system predates anyone seriously talking about it?

                    <<<You obviously have an unshakable faith in your own guesses on that subject. Is that why you never responded to my repeated offers to have the narration translated, so we could (hopefully) get to the bottom of this and stop guessing?>>>

                    Again, you were told exactly how to contact the people with the tape. I gave it to them. However, I reject your premise of "guessing." I read the ads, I have read the interviews, and I have seen the video. I am not guessing. This is the same kind of silly psychic BS that lots of MA's do. If you want to attempt to spin it, contact the people with the tape.

                    <<<You mean Ken? I didn't push the issue because I assumed he had his reasons not to respond. I'd further assumed that you still had a copy of the actual tape, which is what I was (and still am) most interested in, re. getting a clean track of the narration towards having it translated.>>>

                    I am very sure I made it very clear I gave Ken the copy I had. Moreover this is flummery! I care not one wit how they "explain" the power they are showing on the tape. I say it is bull crap and we have been down this path before. I have refuted the silly "mass hypnosis" idea that you linked with the Hindu rope trick, by pointing out the trick never existed and never happened. I can do it all again, but why? The person with the closed mind is you, not I.

                    <<<Now we have an offer from Sri Hanuman to do a translation - I really hope it happens this time.>>>

                    Again, phui. I don't need to hear how Uri Geller "explains" his powers, I know he really doesn't have them.

                    <<<I'm afraid that I can't bring myself to take the "Batman problem" seriously enough to bother addressing it>>>

                    Of course not, because the real core of that question kinda knocks down all the straw men, to wit, "When EXACTLY, this this system, come into being?"

                    <<<As long as I can take a point seriously, I can address it in absolutely agonizing detail. As it happens, I don't take the Batman theory seriously.>>>

                    Because YOU have changed it once again to what you can dismiss. NO ONE suggested they got the idea from the Book. However, I am saying this super secret system should be found SOMEWHERE before the comic book. It doesn't, and that seems VERY odd to the Skeptics in the crowd.

                    <<<Are you talking about Trevor Robinson's "Mind Warrior" article? I contacted him about six years ago and asked him about the "psychic color sensing" experiments, etc. He admitted that he had been under pressure from the editors of the magazine he was writing for and had filled in the blanks of his own experience with "bioplasmic energy theories" put to paper by a Russian scientist who had no connection to Systema at all.>>>

                    Really? I have the posts where Vlad's students in Toronto claim they have seen him do it! I have the posts where I am invited to go and test Vlad's claim on this subject. Then there are all those ad's for "Psychic Warfare" stuff. Did someone else write those too?

                    <<<The various "psychic" exercises cited in Mr. Robinson's article were, in fact, derived from a question and answer section in a Systema handbook, in which Vasiliev was describing some of the experiments he had been ordered to take part in while serving in the Russian army. Again, the historical context is of the '70s and '80s "mind wars" tests being carried out in both the US and USSR militaries - I highly recommend Jon Ronson's book, "The Men who Stare at Goats", for a fascinating insight into what the US Army was doing along those lines at that time. Good movie, too, by the way.>>>

                    Flim Flam by James Randi does a much better job with the subject, as does his PBS special where he goes to Russia to fine ONE example that this stuff wasn't hokum from the get go. If I want fiction I'll go to Avatar. That we spent one dime on the remote viewing et al stuff is simply insane.

                    <<<Bullshido member HanktheTank showed up repping Systema at a throwdown in Toronto a couple of years ago, and did just fine. IIRC he won all of his matches. It was very thoroughly discussed at the time, links to YouTube videos, the works. The vids are still up, if you're interested. Obviously, though, all that proves is that Hank was able to adapt his training to friendly sparring at a throwdown. Perhaps others will do that as well.>>>

                    Well, I can be blindfolded and not only tell the color of paper, but I can drive a car! That makes me the supreme Grand Master of Systema Psychic Skills, right? Or perhaps my skills as a magician might be in play and have nothing to do with my psychic abilities.

                    I am going to dash off a letter to Dana White. I think it would be wonderful to have an old style UFC for a night. Let all the mystic mind set folks send their champions to play with, say the new guys in the Ultimate Fighter house.

                    I'd pay to watch that one.

                    Ryabko is a clown and a con man no different from the people at Juko-lie who let you kick them in the nuts. If you want to train under people alined with him, have fun.
                    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC

                    Comment


                      If we are going to do this all again, then lets all get on the same page. Do notice how they deny Troopa even exists... but this was over 10 years ago and the defense has changed...

                      Flim Flam

                      You are in the Judo Q&A Forum:

                      Subject: Flim Flam
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 05:56 PM

                      Well... I guess we have to do this.

                      I understand why people do not like a debunker. They have invested time and enegry into something that they honestly believe in. It would be wonderful if there was some occult power we could tap into that gave us powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal man.

                      But it just isn't so.

                      On this thread, along with the help of David Ross and Scott Shonnon; we are going to tell you about the things we have seen; how it was presented; and what the truth is.

                      It won't be pretty; but it will be the facts

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:05 PM

                      The old adage “Let the buyer Beware” has never been more relevant than now, when looking at the Martial Art business. The vast number of movies and television programs depicting some form of Martial Art are overwhelming. This has led to a growth in public interest nationwide; While at the same time it has created a huge influx of total frauds representing themselves as experts to the general public. Whenever there is great public interest in a product or service that can be faked or duplicated, the crooks always show up to try and gyp you. An example that most of us know is the name “Rolex”. Now Rolex is famous for quality watches, and those watches are a fair trade item; Which means there are no discounts from the list price from the factory. BUT, because of the name “Rolex”, and the quality associated with it, people still buy counterfeit watches with the name Rolex on them; JUST TO IMPRESS THEIR FRIENDS AND FAMILY! Because of “Ego”, and people wanting to be something they are not, the country is loaded with counterfeit Rolex’s. This is the exact same reason this country is loaded with even more counterfeit martial artists, schools, and phony Black Belt instructors. (more)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:05 PM

                      How do you know if you’re receiving legitimate, effective Martial Art, instruction? That is the question! Here are some of the major “Warning Signs” to look out for!

                      1. If the name of the style is just Karate, or Japanese Karate, or American Karate, or Korean Karate, etc. Real Karate instructors are very proud of their particular style, and the History of that style. All real martial art styles have a recorded and verifiable history.

                      If a school’s style is an exotic name, that they are the only teachers of, there is a good chance it is a phony made up system. Also, quite often a student of a legitimate Karate style, receives a rank much less than a Black Belt, then starts his own school! Naturally they self-promote themselves to a very high grade Black Belt, and begin issuing rank certificates in their own “style”. Sadly, although these ranks are printed on fancy paper, they have no validity anywhere, except at that one school. Worse, the students are not being trained by a true master of the system, which could have fatal results in a street encounter!

                      Yes, there have been instances when legitimate, talented, and high ranking martial artists have broken off from the original group and started their own school and style. One such example would be Jigoro Kano, who broke away from Jujitsu and founded Judo in 1882. The problem is that the public thinks this is a common occurrence. In point of fact, this is a rare event, and should be questioned by a prospective student. Research will show that the founding masters of Aikido, and many current karate systems, were all high ranked Judo/Jujitsu experts before they started these new systems. They did not wake up one day and say “I think I’ll create Aikido today!” They had a traceable history in some real Martial Art. (more)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:06 PM

                      2. If there is no body contact or “free sparring” in the dojo.

                      You must have some form of “free practice” (Randori or Kumite) in order to measure your progress and the validity and quality of your techniques. Phony teachers have used excuses like “Our techniques are too dangerous to practice”. Or, “we do real self-defense, not sport here”. What a bunch of baloney that is! ANY instructor that discourages his students from safe, practical sparring is a fraud! This person is afraid his students will be exposed to real techniques, or learn their so called “deadly techniques” WILL NOT WORK IN A REAL FIGHT! Also an instructor that won’t allow his students to be “cross trained” or work out with other styles is afraid they will lose their enlightened students fast! Now if you are able to train in different styles at the same club fine; BUT, if the instructor insists you do NOT compete, or work out at any other club, be suspicious!

                      3. If you are not able to observe a class, or talk to the students UNLESS you join, or you cannot take a small number of lessons to see if a program is for you!

                      The fear and insecurity of the instructor must be that you, (or the friend you bring with you), may be qualified to critique the class and you will go elsewhere. A confident and competent instructor will welcome visitors and spectators. It is the best way to increase membership in a real dojo!

                      Another reason for avoiding spectators is that the exercises are obviously causing injury to the students. An example is insisting the students punch a padded board until their hands and knuckles are covered in blood! Then the next student is required to step up and punch the same bloody board and pad!!! Have these people discovered a cure for Aids or Hepatitis-B that only they know of?

                      As a group it is very easy to be brainwashed into acting macho or tough in this sort of an environment. Giving up your personal belief in what’s best for your body to one of these “experts” is an accident waiting to happen, and should cause you to seek professional counseling quickly! (more)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:06 PM

                      4. The school requires you to follow their special “health program”.

                      Now there is nothing wrong with helping a student with diet and exercise, that is one of the main benefits of the martial arts. However, when the student is forced to use special “supplements” (Which they must buy from the school); Follow unusual diets (many of which have been found to be unsafe); Or submit to “treatments” (such as acupuncture or chiropractic) as a part of their training, then something is very wrong with this picture! You should check with your Doctor before beginning any exercise program, and consult with them about any of the above!

                      5. Beware of large ads.

                      Full page ads in the newspapers or TV guide mean excessive costs passed on to the students. Exciting pictures of people flying through the air, trap a lot of new students. When you answer such an ad, you are given an appointment with what people in sales call “A professional closer”.

                      This persons job is to get you to sign a long term contract for lessons. The cost is anywhere from $1,800 to $5000, and once you sign, you’re stuck! People have lost their TVs, furniture, even their cars over these contracts. Still sound like a good deal? Also, none of these types of schools ever allow their students to compete with other schools or train anywhere else!

                      6. Holding multiple high ranking Black Belts in several different styles.

                      Checking this out is not easy because magazines such as Black Belt run ads from phony paper mills who offer fake Black Belt certificates. For a fee, anyone can be any rank they want in any system they want! Keep in mind, legitimate martial art groups, do not need to advertise in Black Belt magazine, any more than the US Army needs to run ads in Soldier of Fortune to find soldiers! Imagine a person saying they are a General in the Army, an Admiral in the Navy, a General in the Air Force, and a General in the Marines! What would you think of that person? We know you can’t be a General in all four branches of the military, and neither can a person legitimately be a 10th Dan in several martial arts.

                      There is a weakness in some people that allow the con-artist to prey on them. By claiming to be a 10th Dan, or Soke, the con-men suggest they are masters of any art you could possibly want to learn. As soon as public interest leans towards a style, they claim another master rank in that as well! As soon as your cash arrives, you can be a master in anything too! If a 10th Dan isn’t enough, you can even get Bachelors, Masters, and of course, Doctorates in Martial Art studies. These papers are worthless to any legitimate accredited college or university, but perhaps these people enjoy staring at these papers and dreaming about greatness.

                      8. Mystic mind-sets or stunts

                      If the school claims to knock people out with a shout; hold you to the floor with “mental energy”; Or my favorite, knock out street lamps with KI power, find another school. We, along with James Randi, have offered $100,000.00 to the man claiming to knock out street lamps to demonstrate this skill under test conditions, we’re still waiting for him to try. Real self-defense skills are grounded in reality, not mysticism. (more)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:07 PM

                      9. Check out the Resume carefully!

                      Many schools list famous martial art legends as their “Senseis”. They insinuate they have been taught by these famous people to give credibility to their fraudulent certificates. In fact, they have only been at a lecture or clinic, and had their picture taken with these famous people. Call the people in the Picture and ask them if they know the person in question!

                      The best example of this is a local “Sensei” who claims to be an expert in Judo, and also claims to have trained with Judo/Sambo expert Ron Tripp. This man spent less than 20 minutes, in Dr. Tripp’s living room, talking about Judo, and Dr. Tripp showed him one throw. Remember, they were never on a mat, and never had a uniform on! This man has no legitimate judo skill, and Dr. Tripp plans to let him know as much on his next visit to Detroit!

                      10. Weapon Masters

                      Many phony masters offer clinics in various martial art weapons. They offer to make you a master of the sword, staff, or whatever, in a few short days, or even hours. It just doesn’t work that way.

                      Also, weapons training is very good as long as the weapon is capable of being carried and used in todays society. Swords were great, until about 100 years ago. Learning the sword is great fun, but impractical for modern self-defense. Six or four foot staffs are tremendous weapons, as are double 24” sticks, but when was the last time you were carrying them around with you, on a daily basis? If you feel the urge to train with ancient weapons, do it. But why would you train with a cap and ball pistol when you have a modern one to master?

                      11. Closed Competitions

                      If the school only competes within the same school or satellite schools connected to the same instructor, beware! Punching and kicking air is only a small part of proper training, but too many frauds use it as the only training! Attending large open tournaments with several schools in competition is a good way to measure how your school rates with the other schools in your area, or the country. How does your school do overall? Do the other schools treat your instructor with respect? You can get a feel for the reality or fraud real fast in this environment.

                      12. Negative comments about EVERY style but theirs.

                      The ideal complete fighter would be both a striker and a grappler. If you are training with anyone who tells you that you don’t need to learn both methods, get out of that school fast. Remember the founders of the real systems were all cross trained.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: poobear
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:22 PM

                      Glad we agree on something

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 07:14 PM

                      We will see how long it lasts. After all, we still have the "Russian Psychic Warefare" stuff to talk about yet.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Sothy
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 09:20 PM

                      great post

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: lkfmdc
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 11:32 PM

                      OK, I'll do my part here. First, I'll focus on the Chinese martial arts. Sadly, these arts tend to have some of the worst offenders, because of the general ignorance about real Chinese martial art.

                      1. Traditional Chinese martial arts do not have belts, formal ranks or international organizations. If someone tells you they are a brown belt, black belt, 5th degree black belt, etc in TCMA, be very suspicious. Some people have adopted these ranks as they are surrounded by these sorts of ranking schemes but if they do, and they are honest, they will explain that to you.

                      In TCMA, there are many organizations but they tend to be groups of teachers who know eachother and tend not to evaluate credentials and skill levels. Membership in many of these organizations sadly means NOTHING.

                      TWO MAJOR EXCEPTIONS; The North American Chinese Martial Arts Federation (NACMAF) does extensive background and skill evaluation before issuing ranking.

                      In San Shou, the international governing body is the IWUF (International Wushu Federation). San Shou people should have some affiliation with them.

                      more

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 11:32 PM

                      "first off, the fraud thing was based on your quote in this thread as follows:

                      "...and I feel any one who tells fairy tales about "Ki power" and "mind boxing" should be given as much serious thought as chicken little. "

                      Really? Then where in the above to I use the word "fraud"? Sorry but clearly it was the out of context quote from my comment that a person who claims Psychic powers is either a nut, a fraud, or the real deal.

                      "Is there a reason YOU are trying to fool people as to my words? " You seem to imply herethat I am being purposefully deceitful.

                      The above shows that you indeed were.

                      "The point about Smith was not intended to 'prove' the Russian's case, or even prove/disprove the concept of internal energy, but to make you admit that a man can be wrong in one area, but right in another. Grey areas, in other words. If you cut Smith that much slack, why does the Russian get none whatsoever from you? I just find your posts about this man in particular exceptionally shrill, and I wonder about personal biases when I hear this. "

                      What you wonder is up to you. The man has made claims to powers that have no scientific basis and no proof. I have asked him to prove the claims; no more and no less. I want to be knocked down from three feet away, or other such feat.

                      As to bias; yours is kinda plain now isn't it?

                      "No; he leaves that to others such as the author of the current artical about him in combat "

                      "If I held every judo master responsible for the things I hear other judoka say, some of them would be pretty damn silly. I have never heard him say, verbally or in writing, that he can punch people from 3 feet away. I don't believe I ever said that he could do this either. I have never seen him attempt to do this. I think I will have to look at the COMBAT article to verify he claimed this, because it's inconsistent with what he's said and demonstrated to his students. If its the author just making shit up, well, I don't believe what I read in the National Enquirer either."

                      Well, the PICTURES clearly convey this message. I await his PUBLIC statement saying that was not his intention.

                      "Usually it'll go like this - someone attacks him. He'll pokes a finger at the person's eye for example (usually within striking range btw) - the person flinches, avoiding the finger and maybe another simultaneous attack to the knee or nuts, loses his balance, and falls - no magic or claim of such, just exploitation of reflexes. If the person doesn't flinch, the eye gets poked,and the advantage is still gained. Same with groin kicks - you flinch, or get nutsacked. Look ma, no hands!"

                      You keep forgetting the fact that I have seen the tapes; watched the demo, and read his version of russian martial art history. There isn't much different from this concept and that being pushed by SCARS. I will leave it at that.

                      (more)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 11:33 PM

                      "If you like, I'll ask him about the "Million dollar challenge", although I am curious as to what Randi's criteria is for what is real, and what is not. I suspect for a million, he would be mighty reluctant to part with it. If he's willing to go with the scenario I described above, he will either topple or get a pretty wicked boot to the balls or similar, and topple anyway. That's the funny thing about a lot of the 'no touch' techniques - if they do touch they hurt. The objective is not to take the man down without touching, but simply to take the man down. "

                      OK, let me make sure I have this; IF you can't knock me down without touching me, THEN you will hit me to make it happen? Are you sure this isn't a Saturday Night Live bit? NOTHING special about punching me down; I want to see that psychic warefare stuff.

                      "What you don't seem to understand is that hurting without touching is not what is being offered in his classes. "

                      All I understand is what his ad's and articals say. Perhaps they should point out that hitting is an important part of knocking people down?

                      "Perhaps you think that in the classes we sit around staring at our bellies or something...etc"

                      Straw man and I will ignore it. What I have said is plain. Perhaps you should address that and not what you make up that I'm thinking.

                      "I do not pay for psychic training (whatever that is)"

                      You must; because you seem to imply you can read my mind and know what I think.

                      "So you have fought him or sent someone to fight him?"

                      OK, let me understand this; if he kicks my ass that makes his claims correct? If I kick his ass that makes the claims incorrect? Sorry but science doesn't work that way. I want the psychic claims tested; no more and no less.

                      I gave up meeting people after school when I became an adult.

                      "I have his video; I was at his demonstration in Toronto at the LeBell event."

                      So you haven't fought him or sent someone to fight him?""

                      I have challenged him to prove his psychic powers. Why change the rules? BTW; it is very childish to make this about ass kicking; but I guess that is where you have to take this

                      "Which video btw?"

                      I have his "the system" video as well as viewed several others, including the ad about the Russian Psychic stuff.

                      (more)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 11:33 PM

                      "Secret Russian Psychic Techniques" - I can't find this title offered anywhere by him."

                      I'll bet you can find it if you look.

                      "the Russian gets tossed around by his teacher in the manner described above - flinch or get it in the nuts - up to you. It was entitled 'Psychic Energy', but I have always contended that that is a misnomer."

                      Perhaps the word is "misleading"?

                      "YES, this IS ALL about who can kick whose butt and how they do it. That's my bullshit detection method. Maybe not too scientific, but it works for me. And by that criterion his stuff works. Did I mention I have a BSc. in computer science? I do have a nodding acquaintance with the scientific method."

                      I have fooled people with more letters than you will ever have after your name into thinking I have real powers. Not a good way to tell if something is psychic or not, and that is the ONLY point I have made.

                      "As for challenge matches - the guy has a business to run. For him, fighting is training, and he trains at his Toronto club or at seminars. When someone challenged your fighting abilities, you invited him to your club. Why does he not get the same right? Why not offer him $1,000,000 cash money to kick some guy's butt w/out rules except for 2 - no weapons - single combat? "

                      You really have to keep changing the subject don't you? Ok I get it now. He isn't psychic; but has no problem with people thinking he is. In fact; he gives some of the stuff he does names like that to further muddy the water. Then, when someone calls him on it; you challenge them to a fight.

                      I accept; KNOCK ME DOWN WITHOUT TOUCHING ME.

                      That is the challenge sir.

                      "For what it is worth here is a personal experience with a "chi master:"While attending a demonstration at the China Institute in NYC (back in the 60's) my friends volunteered me (as I am always the doubting Thomas) to be the guinea pig in the demonstration. Through an interpreter, I was asked to push Cheng to see if I could break his balance. My first shove was half-hearted - not wanting to make a spectacle. Then the interpreter ask me to push harder, and without warning I sprang into action with a full push that knocked him backwards on one foot while he hung on to my watch band for balance. But everything continued on like nothing happened to Cheng! I stood dumbfounded and looked at my band as proof, and pointed it out to my friend next to me (a non student) and watched the quizzed look on his face as he was in conflict with the broken band and what he "thought" he saw. A number of people came up to me and said "Wasn't he great, you couldn't move him." When I explained what I saw and produced the watch band as evidence, they hadn't the slightest idea of what I was trying to tell them - their minds were shut down to reality - they only saw what they were trained to see! I believe that what happened had nothing to do with chi but instead was a demonstration of mass-hypnosis where things like this "appear" to work if you let one first capture your mind. Like the Indian rope trick: Those in the circle of influence "see" the boy climbing the rope up into thin air, while those in the background (outside the "circle") see nothing unusual happening - according to eye witness accounts. Chen has been quoted as saying "The skill depended on student awe, however, and would not work against a good boxer (one not in awe)." in response to why a certain master had the skill of "knocking down without touching."

                      aick2: Precisely. Now, what if you have instilled awe/fear in your opponent very rapidly? As long as I can get a result, I don't care how it works... "

                      BOTH of you might want to read Ricky Jays book called "Learned Pigs and Fireproof Women". The chapter on the Georgia Magnet to be exact.

                      VERY old trick; but it still works.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: lkfmdc
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 11:38 PM

                      2. TCMA must include both striking and grappling. If not, you are learning a watered down, commercial, drive in movie version of so-called kung fu. No nice way to say it.

                      3. TCMA involves contact sparring. Every old school I have ever been in had a box of boxing gloves in the corner. Again, the drive in movie, death touch fantasy, forms driven, make a buck easy crowd don't like this but the fact is that the old Chinese masters all fought and embraced fighting.

                      4. Ranking and legitimacy in TCMA is conveyed by close relationship to an instructor. This relationship is shown by pictures of teacher and student together; teacher seated and student standing beside and behind. By formal adoption, a ceremony which MUST have a witness (a BIG NAME type, another instructor), involves signing a contract in a red ceremony book and taking pictures with the student kneeling before the instructor. Any REAL instructor will be more than happy to show a prospective student these things. I have them up on my web site for example :)

                      By certification. Often in Chinese (heck, my teacher spoke no English) but all you need to do is find someone who can read Chinese to check it out!

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 11:41 PM

                      "Like the Indian rope trick: Those in the circle of influence "see" the boy climbing the rope up into thin air, while those in the background (outside the "circle") see nothing unusual happening - according to eye witness accounts."

                      I want to single this out because more than anything else this really makes the point.

                      Guess what; this trick NEVER happened. Not once, never.

                      You all think it happened; you have heard rumor and "explanations" of how it happened. It is all clap trap; it NEVER happened.

                      Thurston offered THOUSANDS of dollars in Houdini's day to anyone who could do it. MANY magicians went to India to see the rope trick and offered vast sums of money to anyone who could perform it. NONE of them ever saw the trick.

                      Yes, MODERN magicians on a stage have done this trick. But NO ONE has performed the trick in the manner you have heard.

                      John Booth has surmised that it is a story much like our jack in the beanstalk tale.

                      NOW, do you have the point? These things get told and retold until they are no where near the truth. You accept the "facts" with NO knowledge of what the facts really are.

                      It sure doesn't help when you call what you do psychic when you know it is not.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: lkfmdc
                      Date: 24-Apr-00 | 11:46 PM

                      5. People talk a lot about DIM MAK, death touches, Chi blasts, vital point striking, etc. I really wonder how many of these people have studied a real TCMA to an advanced level with a legitimate Chinese teacher?

                      My teacher, raised in a monastery, WORLD FAMOUS, named by the Chinese government a LIVING TREASURE, a former hand-to hand (military san shou) instructor, surviver of the war against the Japanese, The Chinese civil war and the Cultural Revolution, etc etc was asked directly about the so-called Dim mak.

                      Now, before I give you his answer, let's do something simple. Let's actually translate DIM MAK into English. It doesn't mean death touch. It means to point/poke or touch the pulse. The Chinese also refer to Dim Yuet, to touch or poke the cavities in the body. It gets less MYSTERIOUS as we progress yes?

                      Well, my teacher answered the first quesiton, whether Dim Mak was part of his training, as YES.

                      He was then asked how Dim Mak worked? My instructor said, and I quote;

                      Poke the eyes, slap the groin, twist the neck, kick the knees, the body has weak points, attack them with focussed power.

                      MORE TO COME

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Sothy
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:32 AM

                      "first off, the fraud thing was based on your quote in this thread as follows:"

                      --MTripp are you responding to someone?--seems like a weird way to start a post, normally you are quoting someone, but I don't see it :-)

                      thanks David Ross, Scott Sonnon (not sure who this 'Shonnon' guy is), and Mark Tripp for doing this

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: SSonnon
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:46 AM

                      In my years of of having the privilege and honor of sharing authentic Russian-Style martial art with America, I have encountered a vast array of excellent questions. The following is one of a necessary insight into the unique nature of Russian-Style.

                      Sambo was the vehicle for permitting the revitalization of "old" Russian-styles. Without Sambo, these 'old' traditions would not have had a blanket to be protected in the cold winters of the former USSR.

                      Did any indigenous style during the lifetime of the USSR survive the cultural purges of the Soviet State? No. Any indigenous practices were swept under the auspices of Sambo - the Soviet State MA.

                      Before all the Sambo wrestlers out there start cheering, allow me to say that frankly very few people in America have even begun to realize the expansiveness of Sambo. It's history is so convoluted with misinformation as to be choking.

                      Sambo is not "merely" a sport. Sambo is not a curriculum of self-defense tricks. Sambo is something much larger, much more vast than any but a handful of people know. (Most Russians in Russia did not even know/realize that there were distinct styles of Sambo that formed as a result of the three different authors of Sambo, until my articles in WORLD OF MARTIAL ARTS MAGAZINE last June.)

                      The point here is that unless there is an obvious connection to Sambo during the Soviet Union, if it is claimed to be "Russian Martial Art" (RMA), it's been manufactured in recent years.

                      Firstly, there are never clear lines of distinction within Sambo... As I wrote in my article for the World of Martial Arts Magazine, Russian Sambo is not a single pearl, but a multi-faceted gemstone. Authentic Russian Sambo has actually three styles, each corresponding to a different founder (Spiridonov, Oshchepkov and Kharlampiev). Sambo is more like a smooth continuum of internal expanse and depth. To say this is Kharlampievan-Style, this is Oshchepkovan-Style, and this is Spiridonovan-Style (and within each style: "This is Combat-flavor, while this is Sport-flavor, while this is Special-flavor") is very challenging considering the monumental degree of overlap, since Sambo is a GLOBAL SYSTEM.

                      If a Sportsmaster of Sambo had never been exposed to Combat-flavor (which is HIGHLY unlikely) it is entirely possible that an individual with the esteemed accomplishment of a Masters of Sport in Sambo could be introduced to Combat-flavor, especially in the former USSR when the competition was so fierce that a Soviet Masters of Sport attended international and world championship competitions in order to relax (In Russia, there is a saying regarding Sambo competitive achievements, "First in the World, Seventh in Siberia," meaning that someone who wins a world championships is a "bench-warmer" compared to those that win the Russian Championships.).

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: SSonnon
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:47 AM

                      Again, it is important to state that in Russia, there is not the stark distinction between Sport-flavor and Combat-flavor and Special-flavor that many in America have nappropriately compartmentalized - that desire to make distinctions is an American social characteristic. Even the very alteration in lexicon has affected the American public perspective.

                      Meaning that to call "Sport Sambo" and to call "Combat Sambo" and to call "Special flavor" lends the impression that they are disparate, when they are not. They are three aspects of the same doctrinal wisdom and information base. Both flavors are not only integral to learning Sambo, but both flavors ARE Sambo as a whole.

                      I think it is important to look at the syntax of Sambo to find the doctrine latent in this discipline. It is deceptive to say "Combat Sambo" and "Sport Sambo" and "Special Forces Sambo" which gives the connotation that they are two different entities. It is more approriate for conceptual purposes to use the actual translation of: Sambo Sport-flavor and Sambo Combat-flavor and Sambo Special-flavor. They are aspects of the same whole - SAMBO. They are not 3 independent venues. Sambo is one vein with many capillaries: Sport-wrestling, Free-fighting, Subject/crowd control, Close-quarters combat, Health/Wellness, Self-defense, Survival training, etc...

                      The primary intention of Sambo is attribute development and the internalization of natural law principles. So many people concentrate on the techniques. In Russia, they are called "tricks" to remind us that they work sometime, other times they do not, and they are only useful in surprise. They are to be created not obeyed. Adaptation, Innovation, Improvisation - these are the three main tenets that are so often ignored for the security dogma.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: SSonnon
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:47 AM

                      Sportsmen must develop in the cauldron and are better prepared for life's surprise situations of imminent jeopardy and extreme urgency. This is a means of preparation. In my opinion, it is the ultimate means of preparation, if conducted properly - as a lifetime sport, a community-involved game (absent of elitism). If someone claims to be practicing Special-flavor and/or Combat-flavor and has not touched Sport-flavor, bluntly - they don't know Sambo as the Global System that it is.

                      Sambo Combat-flavor expands the tactical repository. It increases the technical possibilities that are discovered in Sambo Sport-flavor. All those lessons must be 'earned' in Sport-flavor. But for many precarious issues such has plural assailant engagements, weapon weilding assailants, self-defense for others, etc... the natural laws that are internalized and the attributes that are developed within Sport-flavor are applied in different realms in Sambo Combat-flavor.

                      They both need eachother, because they are part of the same whole.

                      Sambo was created for a purpose... It is not merely Sambo a means of self-defense; it is not merely Sambo a game of sport-wrestling; it was not merely a means of survival adaptibility. It is Sambo - a martial art.

                      This was the true innovation of the USSR. They brought together the mighty reservoir of knowledge from the indigenous styles of Russia, as well as foreign influences... and devised a Global System and pedagogy... and squashed out anything "Russian"... anything not-Sambo, for that matter. Many do not even realize that it is STILL illegal in Russia, since the law has yet to be changed, to practice ANY form of martial art, including SAMBO!

                      Nearly ALL information known about authentic Russian-Style Martial Art has until now, been propaganda and misinformation. Those familiar with the former Soviet political platform are all too well aware of this blanket strategy. As the official representative from Russia for North America, it is my responsibility to help counteract the residual effects of this strategy of disinformation, so that two former enemies, USA and Russia, may unite in our commonality and in fraternity...

                      Sambo has never had, nor shall it ever possess ranks. Recently 'companies' outside of Russia have decided to capitalize on the financial potential of Sambo, by devising ranks in Sambo and/or "RMA" or any other sparkly-fangled named one can conjur. This has never been part of Russian Martial Art, and NEVER been part of ANY aspect of Russian Culture. Creating rank in RMA is only a means to make money off of innocent folk by compartmentalizing their time, crafting their education more slowly, and 'selling' them what they expect from a 'martial art.'

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: SSonnon
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:47 AM

                      R.O.S.S. Russian Martial Art was developed after the fall of the Soviet Union as a means of deliberately focusing on rejuvenating the cultural heritage of Russia, and building upon the SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH that was conducting throughout the lifetime of the USSR into human combat efficacy and health. R.O.S.S. was publicly endorsed by President V. Putin as part of Russian culture. See the following link for a video fragment of Mr. Putin public endorsement of R.O.S.S. http://www.ross.ru/media/fragment.ram

                      Russian Martial Art. These three words are becoming very popular around the globe. Why? Is just only because it fashion to talk about Russian stuff? Probably for some people - “Yes.” But other people see something more behind these three words.

                      Russian – that’s understandable – RMA is part of Russian Culture.

                      Martial – we know that 2/3 of its history Russia was defending itself from enemies, and actually was successful in that- that’s why the Russian territory is still 1/7 of the whole world.

                      Art – It is in singular and from the capital letter. The same likes Russian Culture. We cannot say – Russian Cultures, because it is Culture, which belongs to Russian people. And Russian Martial Art is ART, which is combination of thousand years of Russian Heritage and Russian Martial Traditions; ART, which was passing from generation to generation, from fathers to sons; ART, which helped Russian people to win so many battles and wars. There are several Far Eastern Martial Arts - Chinese Martial Art, Japanese Martial Art, Vietnamese Martial Art... There are also Western Martial Arts...

                      But Russian Martial Art is the only one. There are not many Russias, but RUSSIA – is the only one.

                      But 10 years ago even in whole USSR there were just several people who could answer the questions “What is the Russian Style? What is the Russian Martial Art?” And of course it was impossible to try to find the information about the history of Russian Martial Art and Russian Military traditions.

                      However it was the explanation – how one could know about something which was not existed. Not existed in that area of our lives, which were not classified and didn’t have stamp “confidential.” Russian Style lived his own life, secret life.

                      So, before the creation of All-Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art nobody could find anywhere in media these three words. Can you imagine – big country, huge population, rich history – and no Russian Martial Art?!

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: SSonnon
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:47 AM

                      In the beginning of the 90-th decade the group of enthusiasts, like-minded people set up the goal – to revive Russian Martial Art. The decision was made to create a public organization, which will be able to unite all people, who are interested in rebirth of RMA and helping to do that.

                      All-Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art was established on February 13, 1992, and was registered with Russian Ministry of Justice. President of Federation was elected – Gen. Alexander Retuinskih (Vice-Chairman of the International Combat Sambo Commission for FIAS (International Amateur Sambo Federation) and Chairman of the Russian Combat Sambo Committee, General Director of the RETAL (Russian Combat Skill Consultant Scientific and Practical Training) Center, General of the Cossack Military, Chief of Department of Hand-to-Hand Combat, Master of Sport in Sambo and Judo, Honourable Coach of Russia. Besides his titles, this person did really a lot for revival of Russian Martial Art. Actually, it was the first time in 75 years, when people again heard this phrase – Russian Martial Art.

                      Russian Martial Art has a martial evolution of several periods of Russian history. The contemporary training of Russian Martial Art, culminating from each of these periods of influence and development is known as ROSS - "Russian Native System of Self-Defense". ROSS is the national training system of Russian Martial Art.

                      R.O.S.S. is the Russian acronym for Rossijskaya Otechestvennaya Sistema Samozashchity. In English language, this can be translated as the "Russian Native System of Self-defense". ROSS was developed by Gen. Alexander Ivanovich Retuinskih, President of the Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art. ROSS is the training system of Russian Martial Art researched and formulated by the RETAL Center and endorsed and approved by the Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art, which is sanctioned and authorized by the National Olympic Committee of Russia as the sole official representative of Russian Martial Art within Russia and worldwide.

                      R.O.S.S. is a Movement Principle-Based Training Model. As such, it attempts through deconditioning training to directly address the internalization of the discipline's principles and movement pattern. The main method of this is immersion treatment. This is why R.O.S.S. entitled our training, "Survival under extreme conditions."

                      Additionally, in R.O.S.S., practicioners are taught how the body functions (dysfunctions) in both academic and demonstrative anatomy/physiology, kinesiology/biomechanics and psychophysiology. If a sportsman understands how the body functions (say an ankle) and the sportsman intuitively moves (through kinesthetic awareness afforded by biomechanical efficiency), as the sportsmen writhes he "invents" a new solution to a new "puzzle". One of the paramount tenets of Russian-Style is: "Everything you do is for the first time." As a result, it is not that there are no "techniques" in Russian-Style, it is that the "concept" of a technique is missing (that in order to train, one must repeat a pre-determined technique). In order to DO, one must create a technique. However, it is that in Russian-Style, there are no pre-orchestrated, pre-determined techniques, only that on-site spontaneous improvisation of a necessary solution to the situation. Those methods that are based on technique-training have as their intent the same goal as those based on movement-training such as Russian-Style. And that intent is the seemless fluidity of masterful motion. To command the situation, there are many methods of preparedness, equally valid, even though initially they appear in contra-distinction. This is why in ROSS, students do not rehearse or practice - they explore and create.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: SSonnon
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:48 AM

                      Hence, they are NO ranks in RMA, nor can there ever be. Furthermore, if it is not a scientific system, it is not RMA.

                      Finally, all of Russian Martial Art, for the first time in history since before the Soviet Union, is united, and it is finally possible for Sambo to be united. Currently, there are many who squabble that this is Sambo and this is not. My organization shall change that... slowly... through stamping out the disinformation, and those that prey upon the rippling effects of that disinformation.

                      Fraternal,

                      Scott Sonnon

                      (with contributions by Nikolay Travkin)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Kirik
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 08:06 AM

                      Extraordinary thread!

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 10:44 AM

                      The comment was that I called Vlad a fraud. This is a straw man and not what I said at all.

                      What I said was that ANYONE claiming psychic powers was EITHER a nut, a fraud, or really has the powers.

                      To define that:

                      Nut: a person who believes they have the power when they really do not.

                      Fraud: A person who knows they do NOT have the power; but is willing to decieve you into thinking they do.

                      Real: The person has psychic powers.

                      Now, there is a very simple way to find out which is which; test them under proper conditions.

                      That is why Randi made the challenge. It is very easy under test conditions to see what is what. To date; we have only seen nuts and frauds.

                      My suggestion is to make it a habbit to read Skeptic and The Skeptical Inquirer on a regular basis to assist you into what is happening and the tests.

                      There have been MANY chi masters tested. The results are often painful to read; but as adults, we want to know the truth.

                      At least we should....

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Absolute Storm
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 10:57 AM

                      What a fascinating thread!

                      The only point I'll raise is MTripp's suggestion that a man must be a master of one martial art before creating his own.

                      I agree that it is necessary to have a good knowledge of a range of skills before attempting to produce a martial art of one's own. However, most Karate schools are very one dimensional and full of kata and laughable partnerworks. I am a black belt in Wado ryu karate, which is well known and respected in Karate circles. But it's a lousy martial art. I could have left it behind at blue belt level, bothering only to remember the basic punches and kicks, and still be just as good as I am now. If I then did a bit of Judo, Sombo or what have you, and paid close attention to some NHB videos and some of the better training tapes on the market, I could produce quite a solid martial art/combat sport on my own. It wouldn't need a big heritage or history.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: sundevil
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:09 AM

                      Scott, actually in my reading of history, I would say that for 2/3 of its history, Russia (then the Soviet Union) was an expanding empire conquering its surrounding neigbors.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: poobear
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:17 AM

                      Sothy

                      This has been a debate carried across three threads. I first became aware of it in a thread entitled "Gene Lebell and Steven Seagal" when Mr Tripp introduced the topic of a 'Russian Mind Boxer', it then (based on time-stamps) went to the mental edge, and now (I hope stays) here.

                      Mr Tripp

                      The "chicken little" quote I gave was based on your post on the Seagal thread. I had no idea you were posting on the Mental Edge when I replied to it. Too bad the Seagal thread got erased, because the timestamps would help verify this. If you are not calling him a fraud, then I guess I took the 'chicken little' thing the wrong way. Sorry.

                      My interpretation of the 'Psychic Energy' video is that people act out of reflex and fear, and this can be manipulated. The first thing they state in that video is that Psychic Energy is defined as making people move with "little or no contact". That's their definition. I reviewed my copy last night and there is no 3 foot punching either. Guess this is not the same as the "Secret Russian Psychic Techniques" tape.

                      To me, Psychic Energy refers to the use of feints and misdirection to manipulate your opponent's mind, and ultimately disrupt his balance.

                      It's a shame tape trading is prohibited because honestly, I cannot locate the "Secret Russian Psychic Techniques" tape on his web site, and my instructor does not know of it. Perhaps Kirik can make an exception just this once? I really want to see this tape now.

                      From your reply (I will still read the article tommorow), I will assume that he never actually says that he can punch someone from 3 feet away. Did you look at the pictures and arrive at that interpretation by yourself? Did COMBAT journalists take the pictures, and put that spin on it, or did he? Is there no other possible interpretation of intended message? I will confess that I have found COMBAT to be sensationalistic (I also confess to reading only 2 issues - hard to find up here - Vlad has copies of the article because he keeps copies of all his interviews), and short on technical info. None of his students that I know are under the impression that he is a psychic, (in fact I will shortly start a thread on his forum asking who thinks he is psychic) and as I mentioned before, if someone is tense and resisting he has stated in class that "of course" he will have to touch them (on the psychic . I REALLY want to see where he claims he can punch soemone from 3 feet away.

                      I take it then that you are not actually calling him martially incompetent or a bad insructor. That is my only real concern, and if you are not saying that, then you are right, there is no point in a match.

                      You say there is a similar concept in SCARS re induced flinching? Interesting... Mind you, my understanding (and this is from the internet, so who knows?) is the SCARS guy charges $5000 US a weekend, gaurantees instant results, and doesn't actually spar anyone. Some cultural differences there if this is true. As for the combat value of SCARS, I haven't had a chance to work with anyone who uses it, so to me it's an unknown quantity, and I shall keep an open mind until I get the opportunity to test it in this fashion.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: SSonnon
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:17 AM

                      Sundevil,

                      Russia was considered to be "Russia" since the days of ancient Keivan "Rus" (circa 9th Century AD); though other historians would date Her much older, this is the recognized establishment of "Russia". The 70 year lifespan of the USSR is hardly 2/3 of "Russian" history. (Many empires, such as the USSR and USA, have expanded territory as well as defended it.) I'd be glad to discuss this with you on the SAMBO Q&A, since this is a bit off-topic from this thread. Even more appropriate considering the content would be to entertain this thread at http://AmerROSS.com/bulletin.

                      Fraternal,

                      Scott Sonnon

                      AmerROSS.com

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: sundevil
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:31 AM

                      Just a quick comment, Russia was an expanding empire before 1917. Maybe not for 2/3 of its history, but I was just responding to your post. I don't claim to be a Russian history scholar, but I have read Peter the Great and quite a few other history books that deal with Russian history directly or indirectly.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: SSonnon
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:41 AM

                      Sundevil, my friend...

                      Imperial Russia was 'imperialistic' just like all nations of civilization. I was only commenting on your reference of the Soviet Union. The comment, by Nikolay Travkin, was that history does detail that Russia for 2/3 of Her history defended Herself against enemies - that is all. I agree that ALL national sovereignty participated in imperialistic expansion. That is the yoke that civilization has placed upon the natural world.

                      However, as we both agree this is not a thread regarding Russia's political/national history.

                      Fraternal,

                      Scott Sonnon

                      AmerROSS.com

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: lkfmdc
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:16 PM

                      More to chew on;

                      In the 1950's, Chang Tung Sheng, grandmaster of the Pao Ting Chinese wrestling system, national free sparring champion of China and undefeated in all challenges (and would remain so the rest of his life!) gave an interview in a Chinese news paper. He said that for years, he had heard people say that wrestling was not effective because to get that close, you could be subject to the fabled death touch of dim mak!

                      Chang found the comment amusing because he said that in all his years of fighting, it had never happened. It had never happened even when fighting so called experts at Dim Mak. In a nut shell, Chang said two more things. First, that if he could get close to you, he could hurt you! (It was the truth, pure and simple and if you've ever seen tapes of the 70 year old Chang tossing people you'd understand completely). Second, he said the whole Dim Mak thing was created by NON FIGHTERS to avoid fighting, keep their students and take money from other non fighters.

                      Chang then issued a very public challenge with money involved for anyone to Dim mak him. For another 30 plus years (the rest of his life) it never happened.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Tony Bananas
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 12:55 PM

                      great stuff!

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 01:49 PM

                      "My interpretation of the 'Psychic Energy' video is that people act out of reflex and fear, and this can be manipulated. The first thing they state in that video is that Psychic Energy is defined as making people move with "little or no contact". That's their definition. I reviewed my copy last night and there is no 3 foot punching either. Guess this is not the same as the "Secret Russian Psychic Techniques" tape. "

                      then

                      " From your reply (I will still read the article tommorow), I will assume that he never actually says that he can punch someone from 3 feet away. Did you look at the pictures and arrive at that interpretation by yourself? Did COMBAT journalists take the pictures, and put that spin on it, or did he? Is there no other possible interpretation of intended message? I will confess that I have found COMBAT to be sensationalistic (I also confess to reading only 2 issues - hard to find up here - Vlad has copies of the article because he keeps copies of all his interviews), and short on technical info. None of his students that I know are under the impression that he is a psychic, (in fact I will shortly start a thread on his forum asking who thinks he is psychic) and as I mentioned before, if someone is tense and resisting he has stated in class that "of course" he will have to touch them (on the psychic . I REALLY want to see where he claims he can punch soemone from 3 feet away."

                      OK; when you speak to Vlad ask him about the tape called called "tropa" which is supposed to be "psychic path". It is his 'teacher' in russia who does 2 hours of demonstrations on a "non-martial" audience (with a few "martial" demonstrations as well) where he will stand away at maybe 5 yards and move his hand as if throwing the "invisible fireball" and a crowd of perhaps 8-10 'volunteers' will fall over.

                      We can keep doing this but the bottom line is that words have meaning. Clearly the term "psychic" has been chosen for a reason; and demonstrations are there to "prove" his powers.

                      Now, stay on point. WHEN can I expect Vlad will take the Randi challenge on his video claims?

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Sothy
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 02:23 PM

                      okay, went to Mental Edge, all caught up (I think)...

                      "When you are in a national martial art publication attempting to "sell" the idea of knocking people down without touching them; then I submit to you sir you have "dissed" yourself."---LOL :-)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: lkfmdc
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 02:57 PM

                      Heck, while we are on the subjetc;

                      >> flashy TKD/Karate/Kung Fu techniques, such as flying side kicks came from the need to dismount opponents from horseback <<

                      I have to admit, I have a unique advantage when someone brings up these stories. My grandmother raised horses and I learned to ride almost as soon as I learned to walk. If you think you can dismount a person, especially in a saddle, with a jumping kick, you need to go to a horse farm and try it! Really, it's so silly I am amazed people even claim it anymore.

                      Don't people realize that in ARMED combat, with lances and spears and HOOKS, it was still hard to dismount a charging attacker!

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: poobear
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 05:38 PM

                      Whoa. You got my attention with that one.

                      This 'tropa' video is a totally new piece of info for me. I checked his site, and after much digging, all I could find was an unanswered question from a guy named 'p' (dated April 13th) as to when it's being released. It is NOT advertised, and I have never heard of it before.

                      IF THIS VIDEO EXISTS AND HAS WHAT YOU SAY IT DOES, I.E. MIKHAIL RYABKO BLASTING PEOPLE OVER AT 15 FEET... to me that's pretty damining evidence. That's definitely guilding the lilly. No question. My instructor Sergei sees Vlad on Wednesday afternoons, and I won't see Sergei until the following night, which means that I can't get the 'tropa' video (assuming it's available for public consumption) until next week. But IF IT'S OUT THERE, that alone will convince me that something is not right. I mean, forget slight of hand or psychological manipulation. I can deal with that, those are just tools, confusion to the enemy. This alleged video smacks of cultism. I don't understand why someone would even tape themselves doing that - it would only be good for blackmail.

                      The problem is I honestly have not seen anything like that, and that's what I liked about my experience thus far. But now you're giving me cognitive dissonance - what you see is not what I'm getting. It's like we live in two different worlds. As soon as this 'tropa' jive enters my training, it'll be time to move on... I'll keep an eye out for it. Thanks - I think.

                      As for the randi challenge, could you e-mail me a copy of the original at [email protected]. I won't see Vlad until May 14th, but with the e-mail, I might be able to use certain channels...

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: poobear
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 05:42 PM

                      Actually, I'll try contacting Randi myself...

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: poobear
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 06:05 PM

                      [email protected], right?

                      Subject: what is going on?
                      From: djb
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 07:46 PM

                      Can someone summarize who/what is being discussed?

                      I search on yahoo for MIKHAIL RYABKO and all I get is one web site in Cyrillic; not very informative to me.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: poobear
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 08:13 PM

                      Mr Tripp, Please confirm that the following e-mail has been received (you and this randi person are buds, right?)...

                      Subject: Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev

                      Sirs,

                      This is a 4 part question really, but first the preamble:

                      I currently am learning a fighting art from Russia. The organization is apparently headed up by the men whose names are in the subject field. Lately I have heard mention of some pretty outlandish claims, which I can not explain as simple trickery (trickery in combat is a good thing, and I have no problem with it).

                      My first question : have you invited Vladimir Vasiliev to take your test?

                      My second question : have you received a reply if the first answer is yes?

                      My third : Do you have in your posession a copy of a tape entitled 'tropa', in which Ryabko purports to knock people over from 15 feet by some kind of Psychic fireball?

                      My fourth : If you have this video, where can I find a copy?

                      I realize you are busy people, but if you could only answer 2 questions, 3 and 4 are probably the most important to me.

                      Thank you

                      John Elliott

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: poobear
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 08:19 PM

                      I have managed to contact my instructor, he says he has heard of, but never seen, the tropa tape (I didn't tell him what I thought was on it). Apparently Vlad doesn't have it in his possession.

                      Searched for tropa on the web, of course. Only thing I got was a roman board game.

                      Mr Sonnon, is this tape commercially available in Russia?

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: SSonnon
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 10:58 PM

                      John,

                      Honestly, I'd rather not be involved in your process of debunking your teacher, John. That is your business.

                      I represent the R.O.S.S. Training System - that is my vocation and passion, privilege and responsibility.

                      I assume you are speaking about the tape that V. Vasiliev distributed: the tape where Mikhail Ryabko (presumably) casts a spell over an attacker forcing him to be bounced indefinitely like a basketball (on a basketball court) unable to escape the power of his psychic energy. If this is the tape, entitled "Tropa," where V. Vasiliev was participating in the psychic training with his teacher, then I wonder why he does not have any more copies to distribute? Although V. Vasiliev sent a copy to one of my students, I don't think he'll part with it (for him, the comedic value is too great.)

                      If it is commercially available in Russia, I do not know about it. Perhaps you can try Kamkin bookstore online.

                      Fraternal,

                      Scott Sonnon,

                      AmerROSS.com

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Smoke
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:47 PM

                      Hi, long thread here. I've seen psychic MA footage from Indonesian and VV's footage ala a Systema documentary. I have the RMA footage somewhere and did a review of it somewhere on the net. ( I review every tape I get.) I don't have the hurling people back stuff.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: lkfmdc
                      Date: 25-Apr-00 | 11:54 PM

                      There is a Chinese equivalent to this stuff, a man in CA who claims he can move you about without touching you. A very large number of people have asked him to do it to them, but he claims he can not do it to them since it will kill them. Only his students, whom are so-called specially trained can he move around without killing them.

                      This by itself should have brought up a red light in someone's mind. But, let me add more. This person used to have a school in CA that taught a very mainstream system, but he talked trash about a lot of other instructors. As he is Chinese, and spoke badly of other Chinese instructors, these instructors felt he should back up things the old fashioned way.

                      Long story short, this person started teaching this so-called magic system after getting out of the hospitol.

                      No lie :)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 26-Apr-00 | 06:42 AM

                      Let's ALL read a quote shall we?

                      "Another example is in Vladimir's teacher Mikhail. He would just slowly touch me with his finger tips and hands and there was so much force in it that it was sending me reeling backwards and the deep heavy force went right through me. I felt it in my spine and like I said it looked like he was just reaching out and slowly touching me lightly. There was no technique or body mechanics applied here. To say that Russian masters do not have the internal power in their fighting art means that you haven't experienced the art from any of the senior teachers or masters of the System."

                      Now, does that sound like spin? Does is sound like "motor reaction" to you?

                      Oh, you'd like to know who made the quote?

                      Well, he runs a Vlad affiliated school in Detroit, and was the individual that claimed Tony Blauer plagiarized Vlad.

                      Now to Randi. www.randi.org. But let me save you some time.

                      The challenge is an open one. Randi gave up running people down years ago as it is a waste of time; they will not be tested. This came from a tv special Mr. Randi did where people from all over the world of so called "psychic powers" actualy came on to be tested.

                      Needless to say they failed in very embarrassing ways.

                      Now, lets make this plain. CLEARLY people in the system are making claims of psychic powers. It is up to the person making the claim to PROVE them. It is not for Randi to go to Canada to be told the "test" will not be controlled by him. All ANYONE has to do is go to the web site; fill out the challenge form; set up a time; and go to Mr. Randi's site in Florida to be tested (which by the way is all said at the web site so how did you miss it?)

                      Until proper testing of these claims; we can only go on what is the most likely. I will not reject Science to embrace the psychic world without much more proof than I have seen.

                      As to Randi and I being "buds". No sir we are not. We have met a few times and I admire his work. Unlike others in this matter I am not trying to defend anything but with an open mind am seeking the truth. If this power exists I for one want to see it, and learn it.

                      I am hopeful Vlad is tested and wins the money. But I am doubtful that will be the case.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Chzog
                      Date: 26-Apr-00 | 09:46 AM

                      =)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Dylan Costigan
                      Date: 26-Apr-00 | 11:12 AM

                      Doesn't George Dillman, internationally renowned pressure-points expert, claim to be capable of knocking someone out without touching them, that by gesturing near the pressure point, it can produce the same effects as actually striking. Apparently he is working on developing this technique to the point where he can knock someone out from across a room.

                      My source is an article in the UK magazine "Combat"

                      As I don't know of the people discussed in this thread, i would appreciate some opinions on this, as I was under the impression that Mr. Dillman is highly respected in the US

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: oblong
                      Date: 26-Apr-00 | 12:09 PM

                      Mr. Tripp,

                      I'm a big fan of Randi's, I agree with your position on these matters. But let me play devil's advocate.

                      Just because someone makes foolish or fraudulent claims about one matter, does that discredit his views on other things?

                      There are some scientists who don't believe in evolution. They have Ph.D's from solid universities, but in areas such as physics of chemistry. Their arguments about evolution are clearly debunked by biologists who know better. But does that mean they have nothing of value to say in the fields in which they are expert.

                      Or to take an example from the martial arts. Gene LeBell has a habit of using his pro wrestling accomplooshments to bolster his claims to fighting skills. (And of exaggerating those accomplishments.) Does this mean that he isn't a great martial artist?

                      So even if this Vasiliev person does advocate this bizarre psychi warfare stuff, does that mean that the rest of his teachings are useless?

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 26-Apr-00 | 05:14 PM

                      In a word; yes.

                      First, I have never heard Mr. Dillman say he can KO someone without touching them. Had he ever said such a thing in my presense I would have called him on it.

                      Now; it really comes down to your mind set doesn't it? The problem is if you believe you can make this weird stuff work, then you are going to be looking for a magic solution rather than one grounded in reality.

                      Now, Vlad might be a great guy with lots to offer and some real practical skills...

                      Then again, if you are pitching the snake oil (psychic clap-trap) then it is going to make it hard for me to pay much attention to anything else you are doing.

                      Most real world combative teachers ground their courses in reality; not mystic mind sets.

                      In as much as people are saying that Vlad is a combative teacher, then it will be hard to seperate one from the other.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: HopSing
                      Date: 26-Apr-00 | 05:44 PM

                      Just a note: The "Tropa" tape(s) have not been released, and are not yet available to the general public.

                      As for this thread, Nice witch hunt. Shall he be burned at the stake or drowned? Psychic work of "the system", like many other martial arts(ists), have been hyped up by TRS 'slightly' and most people realize there is a bit of hype while reading the adds. Like who was really the first person to bring Martial Arts to North America? Who is the Founder of a particular style? Who was the first person to bring Russian Martial Arts to North America? In fact, I have an add from the late 80's early 90's of a Gentleman to be claiming to be doing so(teaching RMA/ Combat Sambo Spetsnaz), before either of the two groups we have in North America now! Who is right!!! It doesn't really matter! What matters is ourselves and our own training.

                      Best of luck to all in their training, PEACE!!!

                      Troy

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Absolute Storm
                      Date: 26-Apr-00 | 06:04 PM

                      I happen to think that Gene LeBell is a great fighter, and one with a number of genuine accomplishments to his credit.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: oblong
                      Date: 26-Apr-00 | 06:50 PM

                      Storm,

                      I agree. I just meant that virtually every article about LeBell makes extensive mention of his pro wrestling accomplishments in a way that makes them sound as if they are real athletic achievements.

                      If it were one article, I could understand that he has no control over what is written. But after reading several of them, I think he may be the source of those items. Also, I think he overstates his importance in the "sport."

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 26-Apr-00 | 07:39 PM

                      By the numbers again:

                      "As for this thread, Nice witch hunt."

                      Thanks for making it clear up front this is not going to be objective.

                      "Shall he be burned at the stake or drowned?"

                      Neither as science shows us there are no witches. Nor are their mystic martial artists hence the point of the thread.

                      "Psychic work of "the system", like many other martial arts(ists), have been hyped up by TRS 'slightly'"

                      ...and the chicago fire was a small blaze.

                      "and most people realize there is a bit of hype while reading the adds."

                      Nope, sorry, can't get there from here. We have quotes, videos, and pictures in MA mags clearly trying to imply a power that does NOT exist.

                      "Like who was really the first person to bring Martial Arts to North America? Who is the Founder of a particular style? Who was the first person to bring Russian Martial Arts to North America? In fact, I have an add from the late 80's early 90's of a Gentleman to be claiming to be doing so(teaching RMA/ Combat Sambo Spetsnaz), before either of the two groups we have in North America now! Who is right!!! It doesn't really matter! What matters is ourselves and our own training."

                      Not on point or the issue. Whatever the "history" is; that is for others. Debunking the psychic bull shit; THAT is what I am doing.

                      ...and if you notice; no one wants to really deal with that on your side.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 27-Apr-00 | 02:15 PM

                      Feng Shui Feng Shui practitioners claim to exploit healing energies that lie within the earth by positioning buildings and furniture in beneficial alignments. Energy levels can be increased and positive forces tapped by the careful positioning of furniture and a thoughtful use of colour. Feng Shui experts say that where we live and work, and how we arrange our rooms and furniture can affect our well-being and prosperity. For example, planting dense bushes near the front or back of house will block the flow of useful energy in the home, while sloping ceilings and heavy beams are said to exert unhealthy downward pressures if a bed or desk is placed beneath them. Feng Shui or "Wind-Water" seeks to attract beneficial forces by divining natural energies and working in harmony with the environment. The concept began in China under the Shang Dynasty (from the 16th to 11th centuries BC) and influenced the design of buildings and cities for many thousands of years.

                      Writing about Feng Shui without a lifetime’s study of Taoist observations can seem crude and patronising. Moreover, perhaps an over-critical approach is simply the result of paying too much attention to the corrupt, commercialised branches of Feng Shui or to the watered-down versions designed for shallow, Western intellects. It is impossible not to respect the interest in and concern for the environment that lie at the heart of Feng Shui. Nor is it easy to find fault with beliefs that encourage human beings to accept the importance of respecting and working with, rather than against, their natural settings. There is, of course, much that is simple common sense in this ancient art of placement. People like views and tend not to be too keen on traffic; the tourist industry has known about this for years. Sleeping under a sloping ceiling or beam can make people feel shut in and, indeed, can threaten the taller among us with injury, regardless of any "geopathic" stress lines. However, it is difficult not to be skeptical in the face of some of the examples put forward by enthusiasts. For example, the cases of the patient whose Irritable Bowel Syndrome was cured by moving her bed and the students whose exam results improved when their desks were re-positioned invite questions.

                      The idea of using Feng Shui in the workplace is appealing to Western workers, many of whom have been misplaced persons since the industrial revolution. Only in the last 250 years has the majority of population taken the unusual step of working away from home and it hasn’t been universally popular. Rural life may not have reflected an Arcadian dream, but there seemed to be something fundamentally unnatural about life and work in the factory towns. It is hardly surprising that schemes for reform came thick and fast in the 19th century. Among them was the Chartist Land Society’s idea of giving every family a couple of acres and a cow and sending them back to the land. When Feng Shui practitioners want workers to be aware of the land and be able to see the passing of the seasons as they work, they join a well-established tradition.

                      (more)

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: MTripp
                      Date: 27-Apr-00 | 02:16 PM

                      Feng Shui workplace rituals can, at first reading, appear to resemble rough drafts for a Bob Newhart sketch. "What? You put black paper over the windows? And then? I know, you set fire to the doorway." However, the claim that the application of Feng Shui in an office or workshop has increased productivity is confidently put forward. We could ask whether the benefits come from the attitude of the employers rather than from the positioning of the desks. It is a reasonable assumption that any employer who goes to the trouble of employing a Feng Shui expert in designing the office, will not continually gaze at employees as if they had just crawled out from under a badly positioned stone and might also run to a coat of paint. It might be more profitable to ask why so many members of the workforce are unhappy at work and whether prevalent management techniques do actually make people work more effectively.

                      However, what is the harm in Feng Shui? A desire to feel comfortable in one’s surroundings is hardly suspect. Nor is there anything odd in wanting to feel protected in a world that is, and always was, a frightening place. Our ancestors, in whatever part of the planet they lived, knew this and made no bones about clinging to relics and saints, both official and locally invented, in an attempt to conjure up some protective magic. The myriad local saints and cults that made up the medieval Catholic Church and troubled 16th century reformers, is evidence of a desire to find comfort in hostile surroundings. Now we have no local gods, saints or relics to ward off dangers; so why not try hanging crystals? The energies of the earth will protect us, as surely as patron saints or holy relics protected our ancestors.

                      Like it or not, human beings and not forces within the earth are responsible for the battles and the torments. Not to accept this is a dangerous abnegation of responsibility. To attribute responsibility to forces within the land is to deny the workers on that land and the survivors of the battles and torments some credit just for working and surviving against the odds. We are responsible for the earth and we are responsible for each other; hanging crystals and wind-chimes, carefully placed tables and nicely painted walls, pleasant views and thorn-free gardens are very pleasant but cannot shift that ultimate burden of responsibility.

                      Adapted from "Feng Shui Revisited," by A.J. McKerracher. Appeared in The Skeptic, Vol 12, Number 1

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: HopSing
                      Date: 27-Apr-00 | 02:35 PM

                      Mr Tripp,

                      My post was to insight (the obviuos) that slick marketing people exagerate, being 'psychic' powers or 'history' or what ever. (I know you are only concerned about the 'psychic' thing here)

                      In a nut shell, 'Psychic' = Chi

                      I know all you are really saying is that anyone with these "powers" should take Randi's test.

                      Peace.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: djb
                      Date: 27-Apr-00 | 05:15 PM

                      The Skeptic and Skeptical Inquirer are great magazines. I always get a laugh though, because a lot of newstands put these two magazines in with the New Age section!

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: SSonnon
                      Date: 27-Apr-00 | 05:31 PM

                      The very disturbing and disappointing aspect of supernaturalism is that it dampens the true beauty of life, ensconcing it in a viscous mucus, making the wonder of the ordinary into the banal and mundane.

                      People love to ponder the esoteric mysteries of the ancients, and fail to see the bouncing joy tugging at their pant leg waiting to play on the swing-set.

                      It's all just mental masturbation: feels good to think about, but turns fertile opportunities barren by distracting one from one's duties and training.

                      There is so much VIBRANCE in life, it is... overwhelming.

                      And leaping to fanciful otherwordly dimensions and powers conceals the raw splendor of ordinary things.

                      Life is too short to be wasted on convoluted illusions.

                      Like my mentor once said to me, "If you want to understand life, Mr. Sonnon, switch the prefixes: EXTRA-natural and SUPER-ordinary. That's the key right in front of you."

                      As my personal talent and that of my pupils have been manicured over the years, I have come to realize this... the true secrets are not leaps beyond rationalism, but continually deepening appreciations of the natural world.

                      There is far beyond enough wisdom and awe-inspiring wonder in the world without taking leave of our senses.

                      Fraternal,

                      Scott Sonnon

                      AmerROSS.com

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Absolute Storm
                      Date: 27-Apr-00 | 05:59 PM

                      Great post, SSonnon.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Z
                      Date: 27-Apr-00 | 09:13 PM

                      Concerning Feng Shui: My parents, who are very traiditional Chinese people, use feng shui in our house. to my knowledge, the person who they consulted my parents on feng shui in our house never told them that they energies could heal them, nor do my parents believe that. My parents are heavily into chi gung too, so it's not as if they don't believe in chi. To my parents, it just makes everything more aesthetically pleasing. Those people who claim that feng shui can heal wounds and such probably don't know the true art of feng shui anyways and are out to make some $$$$$.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Chzog
                      Date: 27-Apr-00 | 10:15 PM

                      Great stuff both Coach ans Scott repeatedbly make sound arguments and points... keep up the good work!!

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: JIMMO
                      Date: 27-Apr-00 | 10:54 PM

                      I personally think this is a very sad thread.

                      I do not know Vasiliev, but I have seen his tapes. Does it work? Can he do it? I don't know...

                      But, I have been involved in the field of massage and energetic bodywork long enough to have seen many things done with energy healing and what you would call "chi" or "psychic" work. In this world we are regularly scoffed at by doctors or those who "know better than us", but regularly repair injuries that have gone on for years under regular medical care. Am I debasing a doctors role or skill? Hardly, but the fact that they do not recognize the existence of "energy" work of any kind limits their ability to deal with it rationally. So in this column you seek to impune the arts of Yoga, Polarity Work, Tai Chi, Reflexology, Accupressure, Accupuncture, Cranio-Sacral work, Reiki, Chi-Gung, Reichian Energy work, Zero Balancing and hundreds of other of therapies not proven by the AMA or FDA or science at large. Randi and those like him write these effects off as placebo effects or psychosomatic. I have seen first hand, doctors ignore the effects of these treatments because they do not fit into their world-concepts. I have used them to heal, and have been healed by them. No amount of discussion will convince me otherwise. I am one of that brain washed mass of fools who has come to believe something other worldly through personal experience.

                      I have also met some wonderful Internal Martial Artists. I, as a SKEPTIC, was knocked out by Bob Golden, a student of Dillman, three times. I have Studied under James P. Lacy, who can shatter a coconut (selected and brought to him by any outsider) suspended in the air buy a cord, with a slap of his hand. I am know starting to study under Guy Savelli whose internal abilities have been documented by the U.S. Army. I can't believe in your statements, when I myself have experienced information to the contrary. You have not lived my life, and I haven't lived yours. I would never tell someone that Judo is a useless external, sportive event (I don't believe it is) so, I am upset that you would tell me that the arts I have studied are useless and fake.

                      I, am a Christian, the power and wonder Christ has brought into my life could never be shown to science. But, I would die before I denounced Christ. Many Atheists and Scientific types have tried to "prove" he does not exist. I could never explain him to you without your willingness to experience him yourself. Likewise, many people can see a demonstration of "chi, energy, psychic" abilities and not get it, or else, work to "prove" it can not exist. Randi, I believe is one of these men. He has done us a great service in debunking many frauds and nuts (there are more frauds and nuts than authentic practitioners in the internal MA). I believe that he has done his work so long and is so devoted to it, that he would go to any measure to disprove anything paranormal, and keep his reputation and money. You obviously think the opposite. No middle road there to agree upon.

                      Well, I liked you post here, and it is food for thought. Wish I could do something to convince you to my way of thinking. Though I've only studied MA half the time you have, I've seen a completely different side of it, filled with the possibilities of healing and helping others. These things fall outside the box of what you allow in, and it's not my place to convince you otherwise. I bet you're a very good fighter though, and have high regards for your comments otherwise.

                      Yours in Christ

                      Jim (Hey, Dave Ross, I believe in Creationism also!) Olsen

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Richdoggydog
                      Date: 28-Apr-00 | 12:02 AM

                      'So in this column you seek to impune the arts of Yoga, Polarity Work, Tai Chi, Reflexology, Accupressure, Accupuncture, Cranio-Sacral work, Reiki, Chi-Gung, Reichian Energy work, Zero Balancing and hundreds of other of therapies not proven by the AMA or FDA or science at large'

                      that seems to be the general idea

                      but i wouldn't put yoga and tai chi in the same category as cranio-sacral and reflexology.....perhaps a good website for you to visit is www.quackwatch.com... these clowns that preach stuff like cranio-sacral and such often damage more than just people's pocket books

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Crito
                      Date: 28-Apr-00 | 12:08 AM

                      Jimmo,

                      I don't think that MTripp or Randi are trying to "prove" or "disprove" the existence of god (since it would be impossible to do so). IMHO the existence of god can never be "proven" or "disproven" (not that it matters).

                      As for the 'Challege': Randi simply provides a controlled environment in which the validity of the claims of individuals professing psyhic ability are given the opportunity to take their $1000000.

                      It surprises me as to the number of people that hate debunkers such as Randi. I also find it amusing that no one as yet been able to prove their psychic ability even though many claim the ability to do so.

                      Whoever believes that someone you actually psychic powers would not take their $1000000 from Randi is BS themselves.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Absolute Storm
                      Date: 28-Apr-00 | 04:19 AM

                      I'll accept any form of healing that can be proven to be successful, although I'd usually want some form of scientific explanation also.

                      Admittedly, I haven't seen or experienced any demonstrations of alternative medicine but, if even the practitioners themselves don't have a scientific explanation, I have little reason to believe it works.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Z
                      Date: 28-Apr-00 | 05:36 AM

                      JIMMO: Go check out the chi thread in the underground forum, it has some good read concerning chi for one person.

                      As for healing message, etc. First of all, placebo effect does matter, whether we want to believe so or not. This has been proven in scientific studies that it can help people heal "faster" if they believe they're going to heal faster. Second, I too have experienced chi healing. My dad's awfully good at it and he learns from one of the world's best. But I think it's better if we analyze first what we know.

                      1. acupucture works on the principle that if you hit meridians and acupuncture points you energize the chi in your body to heal places faster. These meridians and acupuncture points very closely resemble the nervous system (so I'm told)

                      2. Increased blood flow to a certain region in the body does help that part of the body to heal.

                      3. The body itself is very resiliant and very resoucefull in healing itself.

                      Now, what if chi was only the increase in blood flow to a particular part of the body? In that case, wouldn't chi messages, which promotes blood flow, help the body to heal itself by increasing its blood flow? That's one possibility. This would explain why for some people chi healing is very helpfull while for others it isn't. All the chi healing is doing is speeding up the body's own healing techniques.

                      Of course, I might be totally wrong. Only time and science will tell.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: angle45
                      Date: 28-Apr-00 | 08:14 AM

                      i believe the stories of ch'i power...hahaha...especially the guy here in Hawaii who is supposed to be a bagua teacher who can "defeat my opponent easily because just from focusing on him, I will take 50% of his energy and he will be weak..."

                      He convinced me that he was powerful so I left his nice presentation...good lord and I would have given the guy more respect if he was actually past 30 yrs of age...

                      sorry just being sarcastic in my remarks, but the guy tainted the legends and myths I enjoy believing in whether real or not.

                      I believe there is ch'i energy and it helps me recover faster than my training partner in judo class hahaha... Just trying to be light on the subject.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Fan
                      Date: 28-Apr-00 | 09:45 AM

                      I agree with 90% of what has been said here but there is a trend which I would like to "debunk". I did alot of research in college for different classes, and there is an "objective basis in reality" for Chi Gung and Yoga. The problem, if you even want to call it that, is that Chi based ability is being defined here as the ability to push/hit someone without actually touching them. Without getting overly technical, I would like to define Chi Gung/yoga as a method of training the body, and certain attributes of the body, just as weightlifting is a system that trains specific attributes of the body. There are conmen in the East, just as there are in the West. Having met a few Chinese from both the martial arts context, and outside of the martial arts context, I have learned an interesting thing. Westerners have a far more mystical concept of Chi than do Asians. We watch too much Star Wars, and think of the Force. :-) At the most fundamental level, Chigung as applied to Martial Arts is about using the breath to move the diaphragm in order to connect/ generate power from the abdominal region down through the hips/ legs. There are few people who can really fight with this anymore, partially because it takes some talent/work to develop, and most people who are interested in hardcore fighting dont go to internal schools anymore. A principle of science is universality. That different people can do the same experiments in different places and come up with the same result. Likewise, there are some people who, by the way they carry their bodies naturally, develop some of the attributes that I was talking about. In MMA, Randy Couture most closely fits what Im trying to say.

                      Subject: RE: INFO
                      From: Fan
                      Date: 28-Apr-00 | 09:59 AM

                      Im sorry, that was way too long for what I needed to say. Basically, I agree MA, especially in this area is full of charlatans, nuts, etc.

                      90% of all chi in martial arts is BS. But the 10% that is left does have an interesting aspect to add to MA.
                      "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Mtripp View Post

                        I find it more interesting that you insist on making me say something I did not. I only asked for ONE SINGLE SOURCE that predates the book. I did NOT infer or imply it was created from the book. After all, if as you say "context" is everything, why doesn't it matter that a comic book taking about the russian system predates anyone seriously talking about it?
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1989

                        Again, you were told exactly how to contact the people with the tape. I gave it to them. However, I reject your premise of "guessing." I read the ads, I have read the interviews, and I have seen the video. I am not guessing. This is the same kind of silly psychic BS that lots of MA's do. If you want to attempt to spin it, contact the people with the tape.
                        Do you understand Russian well enough to comprehend the narration on the tape? If not, I submit that you're guessing. You may well be right, incidentally; as I've said many times now, I find the fact that this type of training was carried out to be very interesting, regardless of whether they literally thought they were exhibiting telekinesis.

                        See my thread in the General Skepticism forum on what is actually going on in "non-contact fighting" exhibitions: "No-contact fighting": what is REALLY going on? - No BS MMA and Martial Arts .

                        I am very sure I made it very clear I gave Ken the copy I had. Moreover this is flummery! I care not one wit how they "explain" the power they are showing on the tape. I say it is bull crap and we have been down this path before. I have refuted the silly "mass hypnosis" idea that you linked with the Hindu rope trick, by pointing out the trick never existed and never happened. I can do it all again, but why? The person with the closed mind is you, not I.
                        If you say so; again, if you actually read my earlier responses, you'd know that I allow both delusion and fraud as possibilities. I just like to have all the facts at my disposal before I make any judgments. You know, the way Randi is very careful to specify *what is being claimed in a particular instance* before he blows the fish out of the barrel; it's good tactics, neh?

                        Again, phui. I don't need to hear how Uri Geller "explains" his powers, I know he really doesn't have them.
                        Yeah, I get that. Personally, I am interested in that sort of explanation, because it offers a basis for a more sophisticated assessment.

                        Of course not, because the real core of that question kinda knocks down all the straw men, to wit, "When EXACTLY, this this system, come into being?"
                        As I said, I've posted extensively on my research into the real history of Systema. Would you like to talk about that as well? It's really very interesting stuff.

                        Because YOU have changed it once again to what you can dismiss. NO ONE suggested they got the idea from the Book. However, I am saying this super secret system should be found SOMEWHERE before the comic book. It doesn't, and that seems VERY odd to the Skeptics in the crowd.
                        OK then, be specific; what do you think is the relationship between Systema and the Batman comic?

                        Really? I have the posts where Vlad's students in Toronto claim they have seen him do it! I have the posts where I am invited to go and test Vlad's claim on this subject. Then there are all those ad's for "Psychic Warfare" stuff. Did someone else write those too?
                        A TRS Direct copywriter wrote the Psychic Power DVD text; I don't know about any of the others. Mr. Robinson was specific in saying that he had inserted the "bioplasmic energy" references because he was being pressured by his editor and that he had, in fact, quoted a Russian scientist who was not connected with Systema. He also said that the "color sensing" references in his article came from a Q&A section in a Systema handbook, and that the context of those quotes was Vasiliev answering questions about exercises he had been required to do while in the army.

                        Standard disclaimer; I don't believe that it's possible to "sense" color with any faculty other than sight, and I can think of several ways to fake that type of demonstration using elementary conjuring skills.

                        Flim Flam by James Randi does a much better job with the subject, as does his PBS special where he goes to Russia to fine ONE example that this stuff wasn't hokum from the get go. If I want fiction I'll go to Avatar. That we spent one dime on the remote viewing et al stuff is simply insane.
                        Flim Flam is my bible, too, and I agree that the "psychic warfare" experiments were a very strange, albeit also very interesting, waste of money in both the US and USSR. Probably better than actually killing people, though.

                        <<<Bullshido member HanktheTank showed up repping Systema at a throwdown in Toronto a couple of years ago, and did just fine. IIRC he won all of his matches. It was very thoroughly discussed at the time, links to YouTube videos, the works. The vids are still up, if you're interested. Obviously, though, all that proves is that Hank was able to adapt his training to friendly sparring at a throwdown. Perhaps others will do that as well.>>>

                        Well, I can be blindfolded and not only tell the color of paper, but I can drive a car! That makes me the supreme Grand Master of Systema Psychic Skills, right? Or perhaps my skills as a magician might be in play and have nothing to do with my psychic abilities.
                        I grew up around magicians and I was (literally) a card carrying Skeptic when I was younger. You're preaching to the choir master. Further, though, how are your mentalist feats relevant to Hank's success at the Toronto throwdown?

                        You asked, "why not have one of these people show up at a throwdown, and show us how well this stuff works against those of use who lack a mystic mind set?", and I replied pointing out that Hank had done exactly that. If there's any connection between my example and your response, I'm not seeing it yet. Perhaps I need to brush up on my scrying.
                        Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.

                        Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)

                        Comment


                          Some personal experiences of mine, take it for what its worth:

                          High ranking ex-"Stasi" officers in Germany, who worked directly together with the KGB, have never heard of something called "Systema". I asked.

                          Vladimir Putin, a real former KGB officer, trained in Judo and Sambo. I personally know someone who trained Judo with him. Said person claimed they had the typical "where are you coming from MA-wise" kind of talk. No word on "Systema".

                          All the actual Russian ex-military or police officers I had the opportunity to talk about martial arts with, claim they have learned Sambo. Not a single mention of "Systema".

                          Personally, I think there is a pattern...

                          DdlR: You are probably a nice enough guy. But you made some pretty bold claims about your own proficiency and knowledge. You also continously (in this thread and others), claim authority based on your superior experience (having been an instructor, so and so many years of training in this and that,...).

                          Are you willing to back up your claims? Like Mr. Tripp did? Would you support a friendly investigation? Maybe a meetup with some other members from Bullshido? Maybe I missed mention of it, but have you ever been to a throwdown? Would you maybe be willing to reveal your RL personality, to give substance to your claims?

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by kwan_dao View Post
                            High ranking ex-"Stasi" officers in Germany, who worked directly together with the KGB, have never heard of something called "Systema". I asked.

                            Vladimir Putin, a real former KGB officer, trained in Judo and Sambo. I personally know someone who trained Judo with him. Said person claimed they had the typical "where are you coming from MA-wise" kind of talk. No word on "Systema".

                            All the actual Russian ex-military or police officers I had the opportunity to talk about martial arts with, claim they have learned Sambo. Not a single mention of "Systema".
                            I majored in history (:englishmo ?!) in college, and I had the same experience.

                            Right from when we discussed the history of European communism, we learned that the Russian military developed a very progressive and effective hand-to-hand combat system that became a model for military combatives all over the world. It was called Samozashchita Bez Oruzhiya, or, in short, SAMBO.
                            www.childsplaycharity.org

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by kwan_dao View Post
                              Some personal experiences of mine, take it for what its worth:

                              High ranking ex-"Stasi" officers in Germany, who worked directly together with the KGB, have never heard of something called "Systema". I asked.

                              Vladimir Putin, a real former KGB officer, trained in Judo and Sambo. I personally know someone who trained Judo with him. Said person claimed they had the typical "where are you coming from MA-wise" kind of talk. No word on "Systema".

                              All the actual Russian ex-military or police officers I had the opportunity to talk about martial arts with, claim they have learned Sambo. Not a single mention of "Systema".

                              Personally, I think there is a pattern...
                              Mikhail Ryabko Lineage: A working hypothesis - No BS MMA and Martial Arts

                              Originally posted by DdlR
                              Post-October Revolution, so early 20th century, the USSR was inventing itself very, very quickly. One of their minor, but significant, nationalistic efforts was to create a really good system of hand to hand combat (kind of a matter of national pride after WW1). The unusual thing about the USSR was that they actually created and sustained (for decades) an R&D program towards that goal; probably the first, maybe the only time a modern national government has ever done that.

                              The rest is basically the history of SAMBO, up until (very roughly) the 1980s, when people (especially Alexey Kadochnikov) started working seriously with Spiridonov's SAMOZ methodology.


                              Then, at some point, it occurred to someone (the whens and whos are still frustratingly murky) that rather than expecting students to learn advanced math and physics in order to understand what they were supposed to be doing, the same skillset could be developed intuitively. In other words, there was a paradigm shift from the old-school, by-the-numbers training methodology towards what we see in modern Ryabko Systema; an open-ended set of training drills focused on good tactical movement and improvisation. IMO, again, it was originally intended as an ongoing post-graduate level course for people who already had considerable experience in more orthodox styles.

                              Then it all got political and mixed up with post-fall-of-Communism national rhetoric, which is partly why we get stories about Russian knights and secret transmission through monasteries. Basically, IMO, a lot of modern Russians are trying hard to forget that most of the 20th century ever happened, so you get this quasi-Romantic "back to our roots" cultural movement. Since Systema was (again IMO) originally developed for some pretty sinister purposes (KGB "disappearances", bodyguarding some very nasty characters, etc.) they're between a rock and a hard place; they're trying to promote a good MA/self defense training system, but they may well be ashamed of where it actually comes from.

                              DdlR: You are probably a nice enough guy. But you made some pretty bold claims about your own proficiency and knowledge. You also continously (in this thread and others), claim authority based on your superior experience (having been an instructor, so and so many years of training in this and that,...).

                              Are you willing to back up your claims? Like Mr. Tripp did? Would you support a friendly investigation? Maybe a meetup with some other members from Bullshido? Maybe I missed mention of it, but have you ever been to a throwdown? Would you maybe be willing to reveal your RL personality, to give substance to your claims?
                              I'll think about it - I can see both advantages and disadvantages to doing that.
                              Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.

                              Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)

                              Comment


                                Being that my wife is Russian and I travelled extensively in that area during the 90's, I've mentioned "Systema" in various discussions and nobody to date has ever heard of it. My wife's step-father is a retired military officer -- never heard of it. My wife's uncle is a retired KGB colonel. Never heard of it. A former Russian special forces guy who trains at one our judo club's locations never heard of it when he was in the military.

                                DdlR, you've written multiple times that you find this phoney psychic warfare training very interesting. Why?

                                Comment

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