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Knife disarming.Systema seminar with Mikhail Ryabko in Moscow

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    Originally posted by Rafael View Post
    However...

    - Let's accept that the presentation of systema, and especially of Ryabko systema over the internet is rather weird.

    - Let's accept that the style is doing itself no favor with the entire psycho warrior crap.

    - Let's accept that the style lacks any substantial proof of effectiveness - no famous tournament fighters that do systema, no reliable accounts of systema having any value in a fight/sd situation, no recognition by any official body of government/military/LE/whatever.

    But let's accept TOO that a fighter's style doesn't always give reliable info about his abilities; there can be gems in the dirt everywhere.

    I'd accept that as all good points. Hopefully some of that will chance.

    Comment


      DdIR,

      I'm not trying to be a d*ck and I do respect your personal view as well as your persistence to get a translation of the tape, but...

      Personally I do not think basketballing people while teaching an MA seminar/class can be explained/justified by ANY interest in history of military psy-ops...

      Unless it was a seminar focused on the possible directions the psy-ops approach went during the 1980-ies, which - correct me if I'm wrong - was officially never the topic of any Systema seminar. They are presented as self-defence/fighting skills classes, right?

      In that subtext what I've seen on the video(s) is simply useless, and wilfully misleading to MA-inexperienced laymen.

      The only way I can imagine Systema techniques (as presented by all the online video evidence provided by the grandmasters and masters themselves) being used to terrorise people is the by playing the "good guy" on the tortured ones until the "bad guy" comes, seriously hurting them (using something else than Systema, obviously).

      Also, talking about military use, use of weapons or blades - is there any evidence of Systema being actually taught to any active military units in Russia or abroad?

      CLICK & WATCH
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      "Bruce Lee sucks because I slammed my nuts with nunchucks trying to do that stupid shit back in the day. I still managed to have two kids. I forgive you Bruce.
      " - by Vorpal

      Comment


        Originally posted by rw4th View Post
        Then what was the point of this whole tangent then?

        You seemed to be hinting that the effectiveness of Systema had been tested on prisoners, which itself is a bit of a leap since I doubt prisoners dragged from the gulag would offer up much resistance (neither would soldiers or paramilitary policemen being hazed for that matter).

        So yes, Russian military culture is rough. What does all this have to do with the fact that stuff like what is demonstrated in the video in post #1 is pure bullshit?
        The point was that you asked the question:

        Originally posted by rw4th
        You can seriously say this with a straight face? After every BS "prison" and "special forces" system that has ever reared it's misshapen head has been exposed as fraudulent you can honestly say that that what I just quoted is likely?
        I was not "hinting that the effectiveness of Systema had been tested on prisoners", that was something that you read into my answers. However, that does explain why you've had difficulty following my argument, because apparently you were assuming that I was trying to make a non-existent connection. I guess that's some sort of progress.
        Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.

        Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)

        Comment


          Originally posted by DdlR View Post
          I was not "hinting that the effectiveness of Systema had been tested on prisoners", that was something that you read into my answers. However, that does explain why you've had difficulty following my argument, because apparently you were assuming that I was trying to make a non-existent connection. I guess that's some sort of progress.
          I was responding to this:

          Since Systema was (again IMO) originally developed for some pretty sinister purposes (KGB "disappearances", bodyguarding some very nasty characters, etc.) they're between a rock and a hard place;
          Since you then segued into the prisoner testing discussion I assumed your point was related to the origin of Systema since that is what was being discussed. My bad if that wasn't your intent but I'm still left wondering why you think the topic was related.
          <insert witty comment>

          Comment


            Originally posted by Tonuzaba View Post
            Also, talking about military use, use of weapons or blades - is there any evidence of Systema being actually taught to any active military units in Russia or abroad?
            This is a question I'd like answered.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Tonuzaba View Post
              DdIR,

              I'm not trying to be a d*ck and I do respect your personal view as well as your persistence to get a translation of the tape, but...

              Personally I do not think basketballing people while teaching an MA seminar/class can be explained/justified by ANY interest in history of military psy-ops...

              Unless it was a seminar focused on the possible directions the psy-ops approach went during the 1980-ies, which - correct me if I'm wrong - was officially never the topic of any Systema seminar. They are presented as self-defence/fighting skills classes, right?
              Systema classes are presented as self defense/fighting skills classes. I don't know what the context of the "Troopa" footage is, because we still haven't had it translated.

              Of the three clips we've seen so far, this one is the most interesting to me:

              YouTube- tropa1

              My take on what's going on: "No-contact fighting": what is REALLY going on? - No BS MMA and Martial Arts and http://www.illusiongenius.com/articles/11-2002-03.html . I know that most people won't bother to read those links or pause to consider them, so I include them FWIW. I don't know how or even if this footage is connected to Ryabko or Systema, but I find it really interesting in itself.

              The other two excerpts look like variations on standard Systema "following" drills, performed as sensitivity training. Going by the laughter in the background, my best guess is that Ryabko was in a playful mood; again, I'd want to see these clips in their original context, with translation.
              Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.

              Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)

              Comment


                The footage dialogue doesn't really explain what's going on, other than 0:16 "prepare to block him," and even that's not telling much.

                Consider, during that era, guys like Kashpirovski and Chumak, distance healers who claimed to have healing powers through the television, and had MASS followings were considered to be utterly the real deal. Taking that into account, this perfectly fits the bill of what Coach Tripp describes as flim flammery prominent at a time when people were losing hope, and falling into utter chaos and depression.

                My offer of translating the footage still stands. I can post my former credentials as an interpreter, if needed.
                =================
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                I used to fuck guys like you in prison.
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                Dude I kill people for a fucking living.

                Dipshit

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Sri Hanuman View Post
                  The footage dialogue doesn't really explain what's going on, other than 0:16 "prepare to block him," and even that's not telling much.
                  Thanks, that's something, at least. I'm hoping that the full video includes enough narration or at least background conversation that we'll be able to date it and put it into context.

                  Consider, during that era, guys like Kashpirovski and Chumak, distance healers who claimed to have healing powers through the television, and had MASS followings were considered to be utterly the real deal. Taking that into account, this perfectly fits the bill of what Coach Tripp describes as flim flammery prominent at a time when people were losing hope, and falling into utter chaos and depression.
                  Yes, absolutely. I hope it's clear by now that we're all agreeing on that basic fact; again, read Ronson's "The Men Who Stare at Goats" for an insight into the US army version (likewise, beginning in a time of chaotic depression, in that case just post-Vietnam War). The fact that the Russians seem to have extended the "psychic warrior" theme into martial arts training is fascinating to me, from a social history perspective.

                  My offer of translating the footage still stands. I can post my former credentials as an interpreter, if needed.
                  Cool. My wife also speaks Russian; I'm hoping that we'll be able to pull together a good translation.
                  Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.

                  Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)

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