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Guillotine eye-gouge defense?

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    Guillotine eye-gouge defense?

    So I was bored and it's late (and insomnia is debilitating) and I was re-watching some old episodes of TUF. On episode 8 of season 5 the two douchebags get in the fight in the backyard. So nimrod #1 puts nimrod #2 in a guillotine, #2 defends it by reaching up and jabbing his finger into #1's eye and forcing him off.

    This made me think...

    Is there anything you can do to avoid this while applying a guillotine? I know when you apply a RNC you bury your face in your shoulder/arm to protect it. And I could see how if you applied an arm-in guillotine then it would be harder for them to reach around thier head and eye-poke you. But as for a normal guillotine with full guard locked is there really anything you can do to protect your face?

    And this isn't a stupid troll post. I don't think eye pokes are the anti-grapple or even a seriously legit defense. I'm honestly curious as to wether the guillotine should be moved from my Oh-Shit-He's-Big-And-Looks-Pissed! colum to the Only-pull-this-in-the-gym stack.

    Was really hoping someone with more experience (i.e. just about everyone) could chime in with a legit way to protect my face.

    #2
    The best counter to being guillotined is to stop it before it's actually locked on.

    Once it's in, I suppose an eye gouge could work, but it seems low percentage to me. You will essentially be reaching up to a floating point behind your neck & shoulders. Try reaching there now and see how much strength and leverage you can generate. I don't think it will be much. It's true you can hurt someone's eye without much strength, but compared to the person who is cranking or choking your neck, you don't have much room or time to play with.
    You are also risking that if the eye gouge damages their eye, but does not make them break their grip, that they will put every last bit of rage they have into cranking your head off.
    Also, a decent grappler is not going to just stick with one thing and gas out trying to force it to work. They will see how you react, and will adjust accordingly. Reaching up to poke his eyes can give easier openings to other submissions ( or better position opportunities ) to the guy doing the guillotine, if the guillotine is not sunk in right.
    Again, correct technique and practice will greatly improve your chances to counter the guillotine before it's locked down.
    Last edited by beardedtaco; 12/20/2009 2:13am, .

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      #3
      If you have the guillotine set in, and all he is doing to defend it is try clawing at your eyes, I would just keep shaking your head back and forth, to keep his hands out of your eyes. The reasoning is that he is not doing anything to protect his airway or pass the submission. So he is going to be unconscious pretty soon.

      However, if you don't have it locked in, and he is able to breath while clawing at your eyes, let it go and go for something else. The reasoning would be that you are going to gas out your arms trying for a sub that isn't there.

      Personally, guillotine submission is one of my least favorite because of relatively easy counters and energy expenditure on the actual submission.
      Combatives training log.

      Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

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        #4
        If you cant isolate what you are attacking it is a bad move.

        If I have you in the choke and you reach up to stick a finger in my eye I will just move my head away from your finger
        Originally posted by OnceLost
        Actually, I don't do it because I don't want people to be scammed - I do it because I enjoy kicking down the doors of Lies and Deceit and then forcibly fucking Fraud with the dildo of Truth.
        Originally posted by It is Fake
        I don't care if they gave it to him because, he tickles butterfly butt-holes while wearing a pink frock.

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          #5
          bite a finger off when he tries that shit
          Originally posted by MrBadGuy
          The Dog kid's mom is parked next to me in the parking lot. He runs up and asks me a question. "Hey dude, where did you learn that stuff?"

          "That was grappling. Real MMA."

          "Where do I go for that?"

          I was a little shocked. Sure, he changed sides quickly, but I guess even a dog can realize it has more in common with the wolf than with the shephard.

          I give him the names of some BJJ schools in the area, and we go our separate ways.

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            #6
            Have fun passing out in front of a guy you've just tried to permanently maim.

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              #7
              Lotta failed reading comprehension in here. OP is asking what to do if you're the choker not the chokee

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                #8
                Originally posted by Siniq View Post
                bite a finger off when he tries that shit
                Yeah, this in combination with what was suggested earlier: shake your head. I'm trying to think if you could somehow use your elbow to interfere with his arm...but I don't think the angle is right.

                Shake your head, bite his finger (if it's in your mouth, it's not in your eye...), choke him out.

                *reads that*
                Holy crap, there's an amazing quote in there.

                Comment


                  #9
                  ModeraitOWNED!!! Wow, guess that was a stupider question than I thought. Anyway, thanks for the input because it was a serious question. I consider myself a pretty tough bastahd and I'm in there with the crowd that I could hold on anyway even with a finger in my eye, but I do like my eyes, right where they are, and working perfectly. I'm really kinda attached to them.

                  This sounds like it would be the best course of action...
                  Originally posted by permahudef View Post
                  Shake your head, bite his finger (if it's in your mouth, it's not in your eye...), choke him out.
                  And even though it sounds simple, I like to remember this shit and drill it into my head beforehand. That way I won't be surprised and will know exactly what to do if the situation arises.

                  Thanks for the input, it was a serious question and I appreciate the answers. Even if it was a stupid enough question to get shoved to YMAS:spanky:

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                    #10
                    Choke faster.

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                      #11
                      Dude, rumour has it you can't think of yourself as a true Bully until you've been MOderated or bumped to trollshido

                      welcome to Bullshido :)

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                        #12
                        So, not having watched the episode you're speaking of, fourTwenty, is the guillotine (hadaka jime, yes?) in question being applied from a standing position? Your best option then for defending against random eye pokeage is to close them. Eyes are harder to poke when closed. However, if you feel you need to open your eyes, you can get mean. You could sit back and throw the uke in a modified tawara gaeshi. Or you could throw your legs straight back and drive the uke's head into the concrete. Then you can solidify your choke by driving your thumb up into the uke's throat.

                        If you're already on the ground, you should bury your face into uke's back, and concentrate on driving your thumb up into uke's carotid. I'm assuming the choke you saw was probably no-gi, so they didn't have the option of solidifying their grip on the lapel.

                        Either way, if the choke you're attempting is allowing your opponent to fight back with nasty counters, your choke is probably not on correctly. If you're standing, slide your choking arm further through and scissors choke the guy (assuming a gi). If there's no gi, just throw him. If you're on the ground, just continue to solidify your position since you're driving his head into the dirt.

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