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Stephan Kesting on bullshido and BJJ

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    #16
    Originally posted by EternalRage View Post
    7. it's taught to the national army of ________. so it must be good
    As a variation on this "some marines went to a seminar on this stuff once, and they kill people so it must be good".

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      #17
      Originally posted by EternalRage View Post
      Except that you could argue that for point #

      2.) You can't train for reality with proper resistance and have it be legal, because otherwise you'd be committing assault obviously. So you put rules in place to protect the trainees - so then how is that any different from a sport. Not to mention the sports promote basics - if you can't do basics in a simulation how do you think you can do it in real life?
      I don't know about that, but legality isn't my primary concern. The laws where you are may be different from the laws where I am anyway.

      Originally posted by EternalRage View Post
      3.) Just because the ground is covered in whatever, doesn't mean you can't be sent there. Still a necessary skill set.
      Does that skillset emphasize armbars, or getting up?

      Originally posted by EternalRage View Post
      4.) ANY single skill set alone against multiple opponents is going to be a disadvantage, because the majority of the time you are fucked regardless of what you know or train (unless it is gun-fu and you are packing). Also, there are self defense techniques (ground as well as standing grappling) in most grappling systems, it's just that the focus is mostly on sport. If one would do the former, the grappling might have more utility in a multiple opponent encounter - ie you might survive for 10 sec rather than 5.
      You don't even need a skill set to survive, or even win something like that. I have seen videos of people with no training coming out of situations like that victorious. I don't mind looking them up, however, even just one video would prove my point beyond a reasonable doubt.
      Last edited by The Twitcher; 12/05/2009 2:12pm, . Reason: Needed bolding.

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        #18
        Originally posted by Kentucky Fried Chokin View Post
        I think Kesting probably knows more about Bullshido than any of us. He's one of those guys that spent 30 years in MA doing everything. All kinds of kung-fu and karate. He gave a great interview for the fightworks podcast (find it yourself) where he talks about his unhappiness with a lot of TMAs.
        Case in point:

        YouTube- Two WORST Martial Arts Techniques Ever!

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          #19
          Originally posted by The Twitcher View Post
          Those are valid points (the AIDS needle one is gratuitous though), especially point #4 if all you know is grappling.
          Absolutely, these are valid points for discussion. I was thinking more along the lines of them being stupid, cliched arguments when used by Ninjas, Chunners, TaeMcKwando guys, etc. to assert (and in their heads prove) that 'my stuff will work on the street, yours won't'.

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            #20
            Originally posted by The Twitcher View Post
            Those are valid points (the AIDS needle one is gratuitous though), especially point #4 if all you know is grappling.

            Yeah, the whole glass/needles/lava thing is brought up a lot in these kinda threads.

            But i would just like to add that i have been thrown to the floor on two occasions in street fights, and one of those times it was onto a load of broken glass. so unfortunately it does happen!

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              #21
              Originally posted by Larus marinus View Post
              Heh, we should compile a list of the most common defences for dead, non-contact/striking-only training in the MAs and sticky it as a warning to others.
              Yeah, we could call it "Bullshidoka Arguments" and put it in the MABS forum...

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                #22
                We don't need to spar because our grandmaster once bumped into a guy that lived next door to bruce lee!

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Larus marinus View Post
                  Absolutely, these are valid points for discussion. I was thinking more along the lines of them being stupid, cliched arguments when used by Ninjas, Chunners, TaeMcKwando guys, etc. to assert (and in their heads prove) that 'my stuff will work on the street, yours won't'.
                  Well smartass, I use the same god damned moves that anyone who says their style is "BJJ and muay thai", as well as more. In any case, there's good ideas and bad ideas. Rolling outside of the dojo like you do inside is a bad idea.

                  This is why I've begun to change because you will fight as you train. Is grappling fun? Yes. Is it the go to idea outside of the dojo/sporting event? Nope.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by The Twitcher View Post
                    Well smartass, I use the same god damned moves that anyone who says their style is "BJJ and muay thai", as well as more. In any case, there's good ideas and bad ideas. Rolling outside of the dojo like you do inside is a bad idea.

                    This is why I've begun to change because you will fight as you train. Is grappling fun? Yes. Is it the go to idea outside of the dojo/sporting event? Nope.
                    Another fantasy warrior is heard from. How about giving us some of these 'reality' training techniques since you will fight as you train. Do you train to the death, eye gouges, group stompings of students, maybe beating them with baseball bats? Please, enlighten us stupid grapplers. :wbaba2
                    Walrus Mike


                    http://www.phillymma.com/

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                      #25
                      Fuck you Twitcher, I'll fucking pull x-guard on the street against 99% of people and be on top of them before they can do anything about it.
                      Almost all competition level BJJ is total overkill against an untrained opponent, and that includes pulling guard on the street. Against untrained people on the street most BJJers could get away with pullin guard if they wanted to.
                      Most of them WON'T because they won't need to, but they COULD and still not be in any real danger from most people.
                      sigpic

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by The Twitcher View Post
                        Well smartass, I use the same god damned moves that anyone who says their style is "BJJ and muay thai", as well as more. In any case, there's good ideas and bad ideas. Rolling outside of the dojo like you do inside is a bad idea.

                        This is why I've begun to change because you will fight as you train. Is grappling fun? Yes. Is it the go to idea outside of the dojo/sporting event? Nope.
                        I'm not dissing whatever it is you train in. This isn't 'grappling roX0rz, striking suXX0rz'. What I *am* highlighting is the arguments from the guys we get on here who train only katas, point sparring (at the most) and the throwing/jointlocking of compliant ukes and then say that grappling arts which train with aliveness and full resistance do not and cannot work on the mean str33tz because of reasons x, y and z. If this isn't you, then this isn't aimed at you.

                        They say "it doesn't work against multiple opponents", whilst implying at the same time that their non-pressure-tested stuff will.

                        They talk of the risks of grappling on broken glass, etc., with the attitude that practitioners of their art will never have to deal with it because they will never be taken to the ground in a streetfight.

                        It's dangerous thinking.

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                          #27
                          "It doesn't matter what part (We were discussing TKD striking points) you strike with, you can hit with any part (of the foot) as long as you enjoy yourself" - TKD Blackbelt instructor who trains teh foom with me.

                          I was speechless.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by Whathappened View Post
                            "It doesn't matter what part (We were discussing striking points) you strike with, you can hit with any part as long as you enjoy yourself" - TKD Blackbelt instructor who trains teh foom with me.

                            I was speechless.
                            I was once told the same by a hooker.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Larus marinus View Post
                              I was once told the same by a hooker.
                              She did TKD? :lol:

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by Whathappened View Post
                                She did TKD? :lol:
                                Yeah, but once I got taken to the ground, her style seemed a bit like an unorthodox, less homoerotic form of jits...

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