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Just how tough is Steven Seagal, really?

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  • NeilG
    replied
    Originally posted by Seagal, master douche
    I was in Kyoto and there was a sword master by the name of Onoha Ittoryu
    Bwa-ha-ha!

    Itto-ryu is the school of kenjutsu that forms much of the basis for modern kendo. The name means "one sword school". Ono-ha is a well-known branch of that school. It was founded around 1630 by a guy named Ono Jirouemon Tadaaki. "Ha" just means branch, in other words it's the branch created by Ono. The current head guy is named Sasamori.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs
    replied
    Jean-Claude Van Vaerenbergh

    Year - Oponent - Event - Win/Loss
    ----------------------------------

    1976: against Toon Van Oostrum (European Karate Union) > Win, 1 round KO
    1977: against Maurice Devos (Netherlands Kick Boxing) > Win, 1 round TKO
    1978: against Eric Bruno Strauss (European Karate Union) > Win, 1 round KO
    1978: against Michel Juvillier (European Karate Union) > Win, 1 round KO
    1978: against Orlando Lang (European Karate Union) > Win, 1 round TKO
    1978: against Emile Leibman (World All Style) > Win, 1 round KO
    1978: against Cyrille Nollet (World All Style) > Win, 1 round TKO
    1979: against Andre Robaeys (World All Style) > Win, 1 round KO
    1979: against Jacques Piniarski (World All Style) > Win, 1 round KO
    1979: against Rolf Risberg (World All Style) > Win, 1 round KO
    1979: against Sherman Bergman (World Full Contact) > Win, 1 round KO
    1979: against Gilberto (Gil) Diaz (World Full Contact) > Win, 1 round TKO
    1979: against Patrick Teugels (World Full Contact) > Loss, 2 round decision
    1980: against Mustapha-Ahmad Benamou (European Professional) > Win, 1 round KO
    1980: against Bekim-Moussa Muhammad (European Professional) > Win, 1 round TKO
    1980: against Micheal J. Heming (European Professional) > Win, 2 round TKO
    1980: against Georges Verlugels (Professional Karate Association) > Win, 2 round KO
    1980: against Andres Kovac (Professional Karate Association) > Win, 2 round KO
    1980: against Patrick Teugels (Professional Karate Association) > Win, 1 round TKO
    Last edited by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs; 12/07/2009 5:18pm, . Reason: Correcting error in data

    Leave a comment:


  • Larus marinus
    replied
    Originally posted by kenso View Post
    Here's a bit of evidence regarding Seagal's claims and their validity. Your post reminded me that I'd seen an article with Seagal in it a couple of decades ago. I dug back and found the article: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b...age&q=&f=false

    In it, Mr. Seagal is interviewed, and claims to have been an uchi deshi of Ueshiba sensei, and to have spent the last few years of Ueshiba's life serving him. This is quite interesting. Seagal talks about training with Ueshiba, about massaging him, and about delving into the secrets of Ueshiba's teachings. What's REALLY interesting about all this is that Ueshiba Morihei died in 1969, and Mr. Seagal didn't go to Japan until 1971. You can draw your own conclusions from there.
    That's a great find. Seagal would've only been 16/17 when Ueshiba died.

    http://web.archive.org/web/200712281...articals2.html

    I was going to post a link to this interview WRT his Japanese sword claims but also here, he says, on Ueshiba:

    Originally posted by Steven Seagal
    Q: And your experience with 0-sensei?
    Sensei: I have very little experience with 0-sensei. I was able to see him several times. I've seen him speak. I was very close to his spiritual teachers and I still am. I think I was the only white person to ever go exactly in the footsteps of 0-sensei in terms' of his mystical training. I became a priest in O'moto Kyo and went to all the aesthetic training with the priest that 0-sensei was raised with. I never really knew him. I never got to butt heads with him on the mat or was thrown around by him or anything else.
    Somehow, I don't think that O-Sensei was the sort of guy who'd just let anyone hang out with him and massage his pecs at night...

    Moral of this story? Never tell tall tales an interview if you're not prepared to back them up and stick by them for the rest of your life.

    On Kenjutsu:

    Q: I read in an article that kenjutsu is a part of your life?
    Sensei: Well, to me Aikido and kenjutsu are the same thing. If you've seen my technique, I'm always cutting. Today we just did a couple of stabs at this and that, but when you watch me a lot you'll see I'm always cutting with the feet and the hand; tesabaki, ashisabaki. The hand and feet angles are all kenjutsu.
    Q: Many years ago, when I saw "The Challenge," I saw your name in the credits. I was wondering how you got in to do the choreography?
    Sensei: This is an interesting story. I was in Kyoto and there was a sword master by the name of Onoha Ittoryu,very very good at the inside stuff .Mifune, the Japanese actor, was to do "The Challenge." The guy who choreographed all the famous director Kurosawa's stuff, "Red Beard", "Seven Samurai" and all that had just died.
    He was a great kenjutsu master and Onoha Sensei would not teach these people and believed I was a good swordsman. They came to me and hired me to choreograph the fighting and the sword and Mifune said, "Who is this white guy?" Mifune said to call up this Onoha guy and tell him to get down here. Onoha comes down in a Hakama and Kimono, the next day. He walks over to Mifune and says, "I came down here to tell you that this guy over here can teach sword as good, if not better than anybody I know." He bowed and left.
    I recommend reading the whole thing. He makes quite a few vaguely Duxian comments about his experiences and abilities there.
    Last edited by Larus marinus; 12/07/2009 5:04pm, .

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  • Lominus
    replied
    Originally posted by kenso View Post
    Here's a bit of evidence regarding Seagal's claims and their validity. Your post reminded me that I'd seen an article with Seagal in it a couple of decades ago. I dug back and found the article: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b...age&q=&f=false

    In it, Mr. Seagal is interviewed, and claims to have been an uchi deshi of Ueshiba sensei, and to have spent the last few years of Ueshiba's life serving him. This is quite interesting. Seagal talks about training with Ueshiba, about massaging him, and about delving into the secrets of Ueshiba's teachings. What's REALLY interesting about all this is that Ueshiba Morihei died in 1969, and Mr. Seagal didn't go to Japan until 1971. You can draw your own conclusions from there.
    Seagal was never an Uchideshi anywhere. Abe sensei was his primary instuctor and received some sword training from Abe but I don't suspect a whole lot.

    Leave a comment:


  • CrackFox
    replied
    Originally posted by kenso View Post
    What's REALLY interesting about all this is that Ueshiba Morihei died in 1969, and Mr. Seagal didn't go to Japan until 1971. You can draw your own conclusions from there.
    That archive of Black Belt mag is the gift that keeps giving.

    Leave a comment:


  • kenso
    replied
    Originally posted by Larus marinus View Post
    Black Belt Magazine interview with Seagal from 1990 where he discusses his kenjutsu training.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V...njutsu&f=false

    Note that he doesn't actually state the name of this secretive Zen priest sword teacher anywhere. It would be a major red flag if some krotty guy in Bumfuck, North Dakota was claiming this sort of thing on his website - and I don't see why Seagal should be held to a differing standard...

    A fair bit of other stuff in there that some of you guys might have an opinion on too...
    Here's a bit of evidence regarding Seagal's claims and their validity. Your post reminded me that I'd seen an article with Seagal in it a couple of decades ago. I dug back and found the article: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b...age&q=&f=false

    In it, Mr. Seagal is interviewed, and claims to have been an uchi deshi of Ueshiba sensei, and to have spent the last few years of Ueshiba's life serving him. This is quite interesting. Seagal talks about training with Ueshiba, about massaging him, and about delving into the secrets of Ueshiba's teachings. What's REALLY interesting about all this is that Ueshiba Morihei died in 1969, and Mr. Seagal didn't go to Japan until 1971. You can draw your own conclusions from there.

    Leave a comment:


  • NeilG
    replied
    Originally posted by Larus marinus View Post
    Black Belt Magazine interview with Seagal from 1990 where he discusses his kenjutsu training.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V...njutsu&f=false
    The references to "kenjutsu" in the BB article ring very false to me. Nobody who really studies koryu would make blanket statements like "there's never a block and a counter". They wouldn't typically call it "kenjutsu", either - that's a very broad term encompassing a lot of koryu.

    Just based on what I've seen of his swordwork in the movies, the man has no or very little training in any sort of swordsmanship.

    Leave a comment:


  • Iainkelt
    replied
    Originally posted by maofas View Post
    If I am remembering correctly: he competed under his real name, not Van Damme, I forget what it is. He was a shodan (?) in Shotokan, moved into European above-the-waist kickboxing, had about dozenish wins, no lesses, competed internationally as an amateur and won some fairly prestigious amateur tournament.

    Hardly modern K1 level stuff, but not too shabby either.
    For the record, I believe his given last name is Van Varenberg. I also remember a decent number of posts/articles about his kickboxing records/accomplishments and my impression was always that he was a solid and legit fighter even if he wasn't a world champion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Larus marinus
    replied
    Originally posted by Adam Alexander View Post
    You're preaching to the choir about him not having to back up claims. I'm just saying why Joe Blow gives him a pass.
    Ah, okay. Fair 'nuff. I thought that you were saying that because SS is high-ranking and out there, that he doesn't need to prove jack shit to anyone about anything else...

    Leave a comment:


  • Adam Alexander
    replied
    Originally posted by Larus marinus View Post
    As far as Seagal's Aikido skills go, the evidence would suggest that the guy is very, very legit. He's a 7th degree blackbelt and would probably be completely justified to refer to himself as 'one of the foremost Aikido experts in North America'. I'd imagine that further promotions are still to come for services to the art.

    The man has spent 40 years of his life climbing his chosen mountain to get to where he is now, with all the blood, sweat, bruises and tears (and likely no shortage of dealing with internal political bullshit) that goes along with it and I absolutely respect him for that, regardless of whatever else I think of him.

    That said, a man who knows from his own experience the effort and commitment required to become a 'master' for real should be the *last person on earth* to be claiming ranking in styles in which he did not train (note: we don't know if Seagal himself actually ever claimed to be dan ranked in Judo - this might've just been something that someone else put out on the internet) or making vague claims of studying an art under a secret, unnamed, unverifiable master. That sort of shit should be complete and utter anathema to anyone who holds 'the r3al' for real.

    My two cents in return.
    You're preaching to the choir about him not having to back up claims. I'm just saying why Joe Blow gives him a pass.

    Leave a comment:


  • Larus marinus
    replied
    Originally posted by Adam Alexander View Post
    Disclaimer: I don't care about Seagal and never have. I didn't start Aikido because of him and if I had known what he was doing was a style of Aikido, I probably wouldn't have investigated the art any further. I don't like his lines.

    I started Aikido because the style's lines were crisp; the techniques were sharp. Seagal's technique doesn't have the edge that I like. So, my following defense isn't meant to celebrate his Aikido or him.

    My history is five or six years in a "hard" style followed by five or four years solo kata work. (it's total 11 yrs) No rank to speak of.


    In response to the question above, Seagal is held to a different standard because his technique is out there in full view. We require lineage for those whose technique is not open and requires some sort of credibility. Seagal is comparable to someone who wins the UFC in regard to setting an art's standard.

    Win the UFC, it's no longer "respect him because he trained under prof. X." It's now"respect the guys he trains."

    Seagal, love him or hate him, made it to the top of a mountain. Which mountain? I don't know. But he now gets a free pass on his training history because of that.

    Now, that doesn't mean that you have to or should respect him. If you find his mountain to be unappealing, then you reject everything. It doesn't matter who trained him because you reject it.

    That's my two cents.
    As far as Seagal's Aikido skills go, the evidence would suggest that the guy is very, very legit. He's a 7th degree blackbelt and would probably be completely justified to refer to himself as 'one of the foremost Aikido experts in North America'. I'd imagine that further promotions are still to come for services to the art.

    The man has spent 40 years of his life climbing his chosen mountain to get to where he is now, with all the blood, sweat, bruises and tears (and likely no shortage of dealing with internal political bullshit) that goes along with it and I absolutely respect him for that, regardless of whatever else I think of him.

    That said, a man who knows from his own experience the effort and commitment required to become a 'master' for real should be the *last person on earth* to be claiming ranking in styles in which he did not train (note: we don't know if Seagal himself actually ever claimed to be dan ranked in Judo - this might've just been something that someone else put out on the internet) or making vague claims of studying an art under a secret, unnamed, unverifiable master. That sort of shit should be complete and utter anathema to anyone who holds 'the r3al' for real.

    My two cents in return.

    Leave a comment:


  • maofas
    replied
    Originally posted by Rudolph View Post
    I could be wrong, but if Van Damme studies those arts I'm pretty sure it's recent. I was always under the impression that his "martial" skill came from a green belt in karate (shotokan I think) and ballet. I thought his claims at being a Kickboxing champion were made up. Of course someone could prove me wrong. I'm definitely not that knowledgeable about him.
    If I am remembering correctly: he competed under his real name, not Van Damme, I forget what it is. He was a shodan (?) in Shotokan, moved into European above-the-waist kickboxing, had about dozenish wins, no lesses, competed internationally as an amateur and won some fairly prestigious amateur tournament.

    Hardly modern K1 level stuff, but not too shabby either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adam Alexander
    replied
    Originally posted by hpr View Post
    Oh really? Why is it then that I keep hearing about Greg Jackson or Mark Dellagrotte or any of those top coaches all the fucking time when I watch UFC? I mean, substitute professor with coach and there you go.
    In the context of the winner quitting fighting and just teaching or acting, etc.

    There will always be exceptions to the rule that will say "he's nothing without Prof X." However, we're not talking about the exceptions (since the question suggests and challenges the rule).

    Leave a comment:


  • hpr
    replied
    Originally posted by Adam Alexander View Post
    Win the UFC, it's no longer "respect him because he trained under prof. X." It's now"respect the guys he trains."
    Oh really? Why is it then that I keep hearing about Greg Jackson or Mark Dellagrotte or any of those top coaches all the fucking time when I watch UFC? I mean, substitute professor with coach and there you go.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adam Alexander
    replied
    The post is in response to the implied question "why does he get a free pass." The answer is because those who like him like him for the technique he shows. Those who dislike him or his technique aren't going to care either way.

    He gets a pass because everything he is is out there.

    Leave a comment:

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