Various strawmen

[foxguitar]

So if being a lumberjack doesn't mean that he has the final word on Paul Bunyan what is the difference? Is it just the fact that there were LEO deaths means we should just accept your word without any evidence?

If that is the case, I work for the railroad and there was once this guy named John Henry. He was born with a hammer in his hand. He spent his life putting down rail. Of course we all know he dug a tunnel faster than a steam hammer. You can't question my story because he collapsed and died after he finished the tunnel.

I think you are unquestionably proving that you have no training in general logic to fall back on.

I THINK YOUR NAME SAYS IT ALL , FOOLISH , FITS YOU

WHEN YOU GROW A BRAIN WE CAN DISCUSS THIS OK , CASEY JONES :new_blueg

[TheMightyMcClaw]

You know, I really hate to derail threads I haven't contributed to much with petty grammar complaints, but these problems are becoming quite bothersome. So please, forgive me while I point out a few reoccurring problems.
When using a contraction, such as "wasn't" or "don't" an apostrophe ( ' ) should be placed between the letters removed.\
Right: ...the point is it doesn't matter if....
Wrong: ...the point is it doesnt matter if....
Second, punctuation marks such as commas and periods are placed directly after the word that precedes them; there should be no space in between.
Right: End of story.
Wrong: End of story .
Finally, interrogative sentences should end with question marks, not periods.
Right: So why you so bent on how many officers did that?
Wrong: So why you so bent on how many officers did that .

Anyways, like I said, I hate to derail. Hopefully we can resume this discussion with a writing style that's easier on the eyes.

[Foolish]

I THINK YOUR NAME SAYS IT ALL , FOOLISH , FITS YOU

WHEN YOU GROW A BRAIN WE CAN DISCUSS THIS OK , CASEY JONES :new_blueg

Yes, I am Foolish for attempting to argue with a fucktard like you. LET'S TRY CAPS AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS THOUGH. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

NOW LET'S MAKE IT BOLD. YOU STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

You are obviously too fucking stupid to understand that your word doesn't mean shit without backing it up. If you were to tell me what color panties you were getting all in a bunch I would have to ask for pictures. If you were to tell me which beach you got the sand in your vagina from I would have to ask for sworn statements from several witnesses.

You fail at logic and the sad part is you are too fucking stupid to realize it.

[foxguitar]

Yes, I am Foolish for attempting to argue with a fucktard like you. LET'S TRY CAPS AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS THOUGH. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

NOW LET'S MAKE IT BOLD. YOU STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

You are obviously too fucking stupid to understand that your word doesn't mean shit without backing it up. If you were to tell me what color panties you were getting all in a bunch I would have to ask for pictures. If you were to tell me which beach you got the sand in your vagina from I would have to ask for sworn statements from several witnesses.

You fail at logic and the sad part is you are too fucking stupid to realize it.

:toothy10::5geezer::new_blueg:glasses6::toothy10:: tinfoil:

[SoylentNinja]

and this is why nobody takes you seriously on this forum...

[BoonDog]

Ok point by point , I wasnt there so but this much I know , the first 2 were executed prretty quickly so chances there wasnt chance to engage in a lengthy combat situation. The 3rd officer If Im correct had a shot gun and the 4th officer we can agree had the brass.

Again, cite your sources since you were not there!

Ok the point is it doesnt matter if one or all 4 retained the brass at least 1 did . And the procedures at the range in that agency and other police agencies were forever changed as a direct of that incident . Yes other tactical mistakes were made .

Yes it does matter. If three did not follow the training of holding onto the brass, then it shows that most do not fall back onto poor training habits. Can you grasp that. I am not saying that the ONE who held his brass did not fall back onto poor training. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is the assertion that you always will fall back onto your training. The evidence so far shows that only 25% of those involved in this case fell back onto holding brass in their hand. That means 75% did not.

Every cop alive has made tactical mistakes and its by the grace of god that more of us arent killed or injured.

True and never in question.

So why you so bent on how many officers did that . Does it matter . The point I think illustrates the premise that you will fall back on your training. So why cant you admit that and move one.

See above. Why are you so adamant to hold this view in light of contrary evidence? Why should I admit that one falls back on training methods when YOU HAVE PROVIDED NO EVIDENCE. You asked for us to research it. I did and based on my research, I find that only one officer fell back on this training method. No other officer involved did.

Why do you think all the Bullshidos in here are so onboard with the Matt Thorton credo of Alive training.

Because it works and makes sense

Thats why we have so many debates and so on about the usefullness of Kata and what not

Because people like you do not grasp the concept of alive training.

So I think you are thinking too small minded. I think the account of this tragedy underscores my points.

How so? THe officers used bad tactics. I have stated that. However, your point was that the officers died because the chose to fall back on the police academy training of collecting your shells.

Question, how many shells did the officer have in his hand?

And the difference of Paul Bunyan is 4 LEOs didnt die in 4 and half minutes .

So what? You provided the analogy. Why do 4 LEOs have to die now? You did nothing to refute the rebuttal of the analogy. Instead you turned it back into a matter of you being a LEO.

I think I made my point and my case.

You haven't. You provided no evidence and have been shown how based on the research done, the evidence tells a different story than what you stated. How does that prove your point?

And 1 other point .
A cop will see things differently than a civilian and a veteran officer will see things differently than a rookie .

Since you see things differently, is that why you cannot address the points but just cling to "I'm a Cop. Believe me."

[Burningman]

I just wanted to point out that this is the wrong formula.
That describes force.
Kinetic energy is usually expressed as 1/2 Mass x Velocity squared.

Sorry, carry on.

If thats the case, it makes TFT look even more useless because of their emphasis on transfering mass in a strike. Bruce Lee got it right when he described a punch as a whipping action, picking up the most speed.

[Foolish]

:toothy10::5geezer::new_blueg:glasses6::toothy10:: tinfoil:

Is this post an example of an

IQ 10 point lower than Hamsters

or is it an attempt to

get a post count.

Either way you are still a fucktard and simple logic is still just out of reach for you.

[2Many]

Here I again inject some facts into this discussion. Newhall incident:

Perpetrators: Twinning and Davis.

Officers: Patrol 1 = Frago and Gore; Patrol 2 = Alleyn and Pence.

1. Perps are intercepted by Patrol 1.

2. Perps feign cooperation. Officer Frago has shotgun. Officer Gore does a pat-down on Davis.

3. Due to poor awareness, Twinning shoots Frago with a .375mag.

4. Officer Gore tries to shoot Twinning with his service revolver. Davis turns around and shoots him at point-blank with a .38 Spc.

5. Patrol 2 (Officers Alleyn and Pence) arrives for assistance.

6. Perps empty their revolvers at Patrol 2, then obtain new weapons from their car: Davis gets a shotgun and Twinning gets a 1911.

7. Officer Alleyn blasts away with a Remington 870. Error one: he pumps the gun so fast that he racks unfired shells out of it. Needless to say, he's quickly out of ammo and transitions to his revolver.

8. Officer Alleyn killed by Davis and his shotgun.

9. Officer Pence fires at Twinning with his revolver, but misses. Twinning shoots back, and Officer Pence is hit.

10. Officer Pence tries to reload his revolver. Error two: he does a range reload, dropping the spent brass into his right hand, and pocketing it. Too slow. Twinning sneaks up on him and shoots him point-blank.

A third patrol then arrived, and the perps fled the scene.

There was a bystander, Gary Knees, who attempted to help Officer Alleyn. But his story has been omitted for brevity.

Source: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Newhall+shootout and the ones in my previous post.

[Burningman]

Range reload involves fine motor skills which are unreliable in high pressure combat. TFT techniques does not involve fine motor skills.

[foxguitar]

Here I again inject some facts into this discussion. Newhall incident:

Perpetrators: Twinning and Davis.

Officers: Patrol 1 = Frago and Gore; Patrol 2 = Alleyn and Pence.

1. Perps are intercepted by Patrol 1.

2. Perps feign cooperation. Officer Frago has shotgun. Officer Gore does a pat-down on Davis.

3. Due to poor awareness, Twinning shoots Frago with a .375mag.

4. Officer Gore tries to shoot Twinning with his service revolver. Davis turns around and shoots him at point-blank with a .38 Spc.

5. Patrol 2 (Officers Alleyn and Pence) arrives for assistance.

6. Perps empty their revolvers at Patrol 2, then obtain new weapons from their car: Davis gets a shotgun and Twinning gets a 1911.

7. Officer Alleyn blasts away with a Remington 870. Error one: he pumps the gun so fast that he racks unfired shells out of it. Needless to say, he's quickly out of ammo and transitions to his revolver.

8. Officer Alleyn killed by Davis and his shotgun.

9. Officer Pence fires at Twinning with his revolver, but misses. Twinning shoots back, and Officer Pence is hit.

10. Officer Pence tries to reload his revolver. Error two: he does a range reload, dropping the spent brass into his right hand, and pocketing it. Too slow. Twinning sneaks up on him and shoots him point-blank.

A third patrol then arrived, and the perps fled the scene.

There was a bystander, Gary Knees, who attempted to help Officer Alleyn. But his story has been omitted for brevity.

Source: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Newhall+shootout and the ones in my previous post.

Ok I give this guy alot of credit , So anybody else want to argue .

They were trained at the time to catch the brass , it cost seconds , seconds is forever .

Thats all I was trying to say , I appreciate this poster , he did alot more work than I would have . Because I didnt think so many closed minded fools would argue about something that as a LEO I had knowledge of this tragic event .

Dont you think that every police shooting death is dissected and examined for training purposes . Dont you think LAPD puts out a training video or tape NYPD gets it as does the lower pudunk sheriffs dept .

We train on dead officers mistakes. We all as LEOs have made mistakes , We were just lucky that it wasnt a fatal mistake.

What gets me about alot of you why would any body argue about my original premise that you do in a crisis what you are conditioned to do in your training.

And all of you Matt Thorton devotees should know that , he says its over and over and even though I disagree with what I perceive as his anti TMA view , the cat is spot on about most of what he says .


and those who say well the other 3 didnt do it , Its not relevant , they died too quickly . And who knows what a few seconds not wasted might have meant to the last officer.

irregardless I honor the memory of these Officers.

[Kid Miracleman]

irregardless I honor the memory of these Officers.

<snicker>

[foxguitar]

<snicker>

Id snicker if it was you :adios:

[Hesperus]

I'm still not over the fact that shit-for-brains has a badge.

[Foolish]

I'm still not over the fact that shit-for-brains has a badge.

QFT.

A fucktard with a badge is a scary thought.