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    #16
    Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
    I its telling that JKD had encorporated boxing, Muaythai, BJJ and Shootfighting before UFC I, and yet still struggles to produce good fighters.
    James Wilks, who just won The Ultimate Fighter this year in the welterweight division, trained with Erik Paulson and Paul Vunak and is certified as an instructor under both.

    So Wilks is a promising fighter to come out of the JKD Concepts branch...

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      #17
      Originally posted by paulmn View Post
      To be honest, a lot of people have been cross training since Bruce time, example kajukenbo.

      JKD is not the forebearer of MMA because MMA exist today because of one family, the Gracie.
      And then the Gracies started to get their asses kicked by fighters who began to become complete fighters -- a philosophy that Bruce touted two decades before the first UFC.

      And though people had been cross training before Bruce's time, his contribution was his emphasis on "aliveness" and superior fitness.

      I think that Bruce started putting the pieces of the puzzle together in a way that truly was influential; it's no wonder that Dana White and Randy Couture consider Bruce to be the "father of mixed martial arts."

      The question that you should ask is would everyone be talking about JKD if Bruce was not a movie star.
      Probably not, but Bruce was smart enough and talented enough to use film as a vehicle for spreading his philosophies.
      Last edited by Stick & Submit; 7/27/2009 11:38am, .

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Stick & Submit View Post
        James Wilks, who just won The Ultimate Fighter this year in the welterweight division, trained with Erik Paulson and Paul Vunak and is certified as an instructor under both.

        So Wilks is a promising fighter to come out of the JKD Concepts branch...
        Sure, we had a guy at my old gym who was in the AFC and the UFC in the mid 90's. Paulson was a Shooto champ. Still there are surprisingly few people from that background considering that they had all the pieces of the puzzle so early on.
        Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


        KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

        In De Janerio, in blackest night,
        Luta Livre flees the fight,
        Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
        Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
          Sure, we had a guy at my old gym who was in the AFC and the UFC in the mid 90's. Paulson was a Shooto champ. Still there are surprisingly few people from that background considering that they had all the pieces of the puzzle so early on.
          There really weren't the venues for it back then. If you weren't going to fly to Japan to fight Shooto or to Brazil to do Vale Tudo where was there to actually excel in the late 80s/early 90s? Please don't say the UFC, as it was a huge freakshow in it's own right with hardly any reward for the risk.

          I think what is happening is that the generation of people who trained hard back then in the system are now at the age where they have been coaching for awhile and are producing people, and since there is now definitely a viable path for fighters in the U.S. I think you will see more and more of them.

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            #20
            Other examples of deliberate cross-training well before JKD include Bartitsu, which was founded in 1899 as a process of pressure-testing between judo/jujitsu, boxing, savate, Swiss wrestling and stick fighting. There were numerous subsequent self defense systems that likewise borrowed from a wide range of styles, covered the various ranges, etc.

            However, the fact that there were historical precedents shouldn't diminish what Bruce Lee did accomplish; at that time (late '60s) in the American MA scene, the JKD concept really was quite revolutionary. He was an "angry young man" railing against "the Establishment", basically creating JKD as a martial arts counter-culture.

            I did some JKD seminars with Dan Inosanto and Larry Hartsell about twenty years ago, and that was eye-opening; they made what I was doing then look like thumb-wrestling.

            I haven't kept up with JKD at all, but my impression is that it retains a greater emphasis on self defense and "recreational training" than would a typical MMA school. As others have suggested, this basically comes down to the fact that there are now thriving professional and amateur MMA circuits. The opportunity to earn a living as a fighter in that type of competition simply didn't exist when Bruce Lee was alive.
            Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.

            Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
              I its telling that JKD had encorporated boxing, Muaythai, BJJ and Shootfighting before UFC I, and yet still struggles to produce good fighters.
              Erik Paulsen. Tim Boestch, Ron Balicki(did well in shooto).

              Greg Nelson runs one of the most succesful MMA camps in the country.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Raging Monkey View Post
                There really weren't the venues for it back then. If you weren't going to fly to Japan to fight Shooto or to Brazil to do Vale Tudo where was there to actually excel in the late 80s/early 90s? Please don't say the UFC, as it was a huge freakshow in it's own right with hardly any reward for the risk.

                I think what is happening is that the generation of people who trained hard back then in the system are now at the age where they have been coaching for awhile and are producing people, and since there is now definitely a viable path for fighters in the U.S. I think you will see more and more of them.
                I'm sorry but I don't buy this. Nothing stopped Paulson, David Hood, and Todd Medina from putting their ass on the line.

                The UFC was not percieved as a "freak show" back then. IIRC the top purses in the early UFC's were around $100,000. That's still good money.
                Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                Luta Livre flees the fight,
                Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                  Sure, we had a guy at my old gym who was in the AFC and the UFC in the mid 90's. Paulson was a Shooto champ. Still there are surprisingly few people from that background considering that they had all the pieces of the puzzle so early on.
                  Randy Couture also worked on his stand up with Matt Thornton at SBG.

                  I think the biggest problem with the JKD camps is that too many have been too slow in bringing up their level of training to MMA standards.

                  But I see JKD potentially enjoying a reemergence through MMA not unlike Karate's reemergence with GSP and Machida. They're two fighters who adapted their base art into the MMA paradigm, and I think particularly with Machida, it's made his fighting unorthodox and frustrating to fighters with the stock MT/boxing background.

                  I think that there is still much about JKD that could give fighters an edge, particularly with footwork, angles of attack and interception. It's just going to take an exceptional fighter; if GSP and Machida could do it with Karate, then I'm pretty sure that someone can do it with JKD...

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                    I'm sorry but I don't buy this. Nothing stopped Paulson, David Hood, and Todd Medina from putting their ass on the line.

                    The UFC was not percieved as a "freak show" back then. IIRC the top purses in the early UFC's were around $100,000. That's still good money.
                    I believe that Vunak was also invited by Rorion to fight in the early UFC, but Vunak declined. Of course Vunak was also living with and training the SEALs at the time, so it's hard to know as to whether or not there was some sort of contractual situation there. He could've also just been interested in saving face.

                    But Vunak had been training with the Gracies since I believe around 1986; he must have at least been a purple belt by 1993 (to my knowledge he's a BJJ black belt now), and I wonder if the Rorion invitation actually happened. Vunak is definitely not a slouch, and he would've been the only other fighter early on inside the Octagon who knew the "Gracie secrets" ... I think he might have been a real threat to Royce as he actually had a far more complete game (JKD, MT, Savate, Panantukan), so I'm not sure how much truth there is to the invitation.
                    Last edited by Stick & Submit; 7/27/2009 1:03pm, .

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Stick & Submit View Post
                      I believe that Vunak was also invited by Rorion to fight in the early UFC, but Vunak declined. Of course Vunak was also living with and training the SEALs at the time, so it's hard to know as to whether or not there was some sort of contractual situation there.

                      But Vunak had been training with the Gracies since I believe around 1986; he must have at least been a purple belt by 1993 (to my knowledge he's a BJJ black belt now), and I wonder if the Rorion invitation actually happened. Vunak is a definitely not a slouch, and he would've been the only other fighter early on inside the Octagon who knew the "Gracie secrets" ... I think he might have been a real threat to Royce as he actually had a far more complete game (MT, Savate, FMA), so I'm not sure how much truth there is to the invitation.
                      The invitation to Vu came from Art Davie, not Rorion. Paul declined. I'm guessing it had to do with him being under Rickson. Rickson was still cornering Royce in the beginning.

                      There were some other fighters around who weren't complete BJJ n00bs at the time. David Hood, for example was also training under Rickson back then, and Jason Delucia had a few years exposure.
                      Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                      KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                      In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                      Luta Livre flees the fight,
                      Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                      Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                        The invitation to Vu came from Art Davie, not Rorion. Paul declined. I'm guessing it had to do with him being under Rickson. Rickson was still cornering Royce in the beginning.

                        There were some other fighters around who weren't complete BJJ n00bs at the time. David Hood, for example was also training under Rickson back then, and Jason Delucia had a few years exposure.
                        That's cool that you know this history...certainly better than me!

                        But yeah, it's hard to know why Vu declined. The guy's a pretty terrific all-around fighter, but maybe he was just interested in saving face.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          1) I love Jun Fan Gung Fu.
                          2) I love Daniel Inosanto.
                          3) That is all.

                          Real Join Date: Nov. 2003

                          Originally posted by Dilbert
                          "Driving without blood is surprisingly difficult."

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by Stick & Submit View Post
                            That's cool that you know this history...certainly better than me!

                            But yeah, it's hard to know why Vu declined. The guy's a pretty terrific all-around fighter, but maybe he was just interested in saving face.
                            I had the good fortune to be at a gym run by one of Vunak's guys, starting in between UFC I and II. At the time they were preparing a fighter for NHB competition (Hood). I got to hear a lot of gossip and talked to Davie on the phone once myself (trying to get the unaired matches from UFC II).:tongue7:
                            Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                            KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                            In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                            Luta Livre flees the fight,
                            Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                            Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Stick & Submit View Post
                              he must have at least been a purple belt by 1993 (to my knowledge he's a BJJ black belt now)
                              Don't quote me, but I think Vunak was probably an advanced Blue at the time. My instructor started with a Rickson just after Paul, and was a blue in 1993.

                              Here's something he posted about it on another board.:

                              Vunak and the revolution by Joe Maffei


                              Subject:
                              From: Joe Maffei
                              Date: 23-Apr-01 | 03:34 PM

                              Vunak and the revolution.
                              Continuing where I left off in my last thread. Vunak after the SEALS. There was something big stirring. I remember getting a phone call from Vu about midnight Boston time in late “1988”Vu was very excited. I was half asleep, but he kept ranting. He said, “Joey. I just got back from training with this guy Rickson Gracie. We started wrestling and he made me feel like a child. He was like a gorilla playing a small baby. No one has ever done that before. Here is his phone number he is expecting your call. I want him to be your new teacher.” He started to describe the Gracie brothers and how they are this family from Brazil . And that they are wrestlers, and he went on and on. So after we hung up, I called Rickson and booked him for a seminar at my school in Waltham Ma.
                              Here is a little historical fact. That seminar was the very first seminar Rickson did after he split from his brothers and went on his own. Rickson charged $500 for the seminar, and $25 a private. The UFC was still 4-years away. And the Gracie name in America was only known by a small group of people. Vu saw the potential for the PFS/JKD ideas to grow. So we started blending Brazilian Jiu-jitsu with our thai boxing, wing chun, Kali and all the other elements in our framework. (Sounds a lot like NHB training to me.) Now this was back in “88” “89”. Dan and Larry and 99.9% of the whole JKD world did not start doing this stuff until much later. And even today some of them haven’t seen the light.
                              Vu was on the cutting edge. As I said in my last post there were only a handful of people when Paul got back from the seals, so there were only a few people doing this new PFS with the new edition of BJJ.
                              Around “1991” I became a full instructor in PFS. I remember, I was crashed out at Paul’s house in Long beach. He came flying in waking me up. ( This guy keeps waking me up, What’s up with that. LOL.) He had a certificate in his hand saying, “Joey get up you’re a full instructor, get up.” It was great, very informal. We then proceeded to the morning ritual, and that was that. Back then , there was only Apprentice, and Full instructors. There was no Phase 1 or senior full. Those categories were added much later. I’m not sure why, I have my idea’s, but you would have to ask Vu. I remember talking to Vu about the business of the martial arts. He said to me “ In a few years you will be writing articles for magazines, you will have your own videos, and doing seminars just like I’m doing”. I laughed, and said. I would be happy just having a nice little school with good people. But he was right. I did everything he said, and more. But what I really enjoyed was our discussion about people, loyalty, and what to expect, and what not to expect from my students. And he was right about all that stuff too. But learning BJJ was the main focus back then. Rickson would be a big part of my life, Vu’s and the development of PFS. But around “95” “96” Things were starting to change. Some for the better, some for the worst.
                              From http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/jmvu3.html
                              Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                              KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                              In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                              Luta Livre flees the fight,
                              Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                              Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                                The invitation to Vu came from Art Davie, not Rorion. Paul declined. I'm guessing it had to do with him being under Rickson. Rickson was still cornering Royce in the beginning.

                                There were some other fighters around who weren't complete BJJ n00bs at the time. David Hood, for example was also training under Rickson back then, and Jason Delucia had a few years exposure.
                                They should have invited Gokor. My money is that he would have Heel-hooked the shit out of Royce.

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