Does Mir's loss to Lesnar=the death of the Gracie propaganda

[JavaRonin]

From what some are saying, it sounds like another Gracie myth has been shot down -- that BJJ allows the small man to beat a bigger man.

[Gabetuno]

From what some are saying, it sounds like another Gracie myth has been shot down -- that BJJ allows the small man to beat a bigger man.

Your blanket statement is just as useless as your supposed "Gracie Myth".

[theotherserge]

From what some are saying, it sounds like another Gracie myth has been shot down -- that BJJ allows the small man to beat a bigger man.

I thought this was the non-retarded Brock/Mir thread.

You missed the part where Brock out-wrestled Mir and where Mir didn't show anything beyond 1/2 guard lockdown?

[JavaRonin]

I thought this was the non-retarded Brock/Mir thread.

You missed the part where Brock out-wrestled Mir and where Mir didn't show anything beyond 1/2 guard lockdown?

I didn't miss it. I'm merely highlighting the nonsense behind the following assertion, which is representative of the marketing machine...

[From the BJJ article on Wikipedia]
Following from the principles of Judo, it promotes that a smaller, weaker person can successfully defend themselves against a bigger, stronger assailant using leverage and proper technique; most notably, by applying joint-locks and chokeholds to defeat them.

Several people just asserted that Brock's sheer muscular stature prevented a submission from a smaller feller. Sure, if the bigger guy is a better grappler, he's going to beat the smaller guy. This is a worthless observation. But the above quoted claim is about as trivial as saying boxing allows a smaller guy to beat a much bigger opponent by applying a series of fast jabs, rights, and hooks -- unless the big guy knows how to box, too.

The only thing retarded is the myth that BJJ has any special advantages over other styles in allowing a smaller skilled person to defeat a bigger unskilled bum off the street. If skill and technique were all that mattered, you wouldn't have weight classes.

[Goju - Joe]

The larger man with BJJ will usually beat the smaller man with BJJ, especially when the larger man has superior wrestling.

Brock Trains BJJ as well.

Also this thread is about a renowned BJJ black belt who breaks down Brocks technique showing it just wasn't size

seriously I want to verbal assualt you for lack of reading comprehension

[Gabetuno]

So you come in quoting generalities from fucking Wikipedia, hoping to prove what exactly? That BJJ isn't the end-all-be-all of MA, which nobody in this thread stated anyway, and you have to be a retard to believe???

Thanks for the fantastic derail, Captain Obvious. This has nothing to do with the thread, which is really about what Mir did wrong and what Lesnar did right.

[Goju - Joe]

But the above quoted claim is about as trivial as saying boxing allows a smaller guy to beat a much bigger opponent by applying a series of fast jabs, rights, and hooks -- unless the big guy knows how to box, too.

Arghhhhhh

[Gabetuno]

The lesson to fucking take away is that Mir is not champion material. He's pulled out some subs on people who notoriously get subbed, and knocked out some nobody once. Oh and he subbed a guy in his first ever fight who just also now happens to be the current silverback... I mean champion.

Oh and that Lesnar can learn BJJ.

[JavaRonin]

So you come in quoting generalities from fucking Wikipedia, hoping to prove what exactly?

Hardly a mere Wikipedia quote. Pick up virtually any BJJ book or pick up thousands of Google results and come up with the same nonsense...

http://www.armlock.com/
"Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was specifically developed to allow a smaller person defeat a larger person by sophisticated application of leverage and technique. Gaining superior position on your opponent and applying a myriad of chokes, holds, locks and joint manipulations becomes the foundation for this fun martial art."

This is the same prop we hear from Aikido.

That BJJ isn't the end-all-be-all of MA, which nobody in this thread stated anyway, and you have to be a retard to believe???

And I never stated that BJJ claims to be the end-all-be-all, though you might be led to expect otherwise by some its more prickly practitioners. I'm pointing out that it's BS that in itself it allows a smaller man to defeat a larger man, at least any better than boxing or other martial art.

Thanks for the fantastic derail, Captain Obvious. This has nothing to do with the thread, which is really about what Mir did wrong and what Lesnar did right.

The thread presents no single explanation on why Mir lost. I was only following up on this...

I think Frank's never going to be able to out grapple Lesnar, it doesn't matter how good you are and [sic] Orangutan will always pull your arms off.

There's your "derail" right there.

The lesson to fucking take away is that Mir is not champion material.

Is it your contention that if Mir had followed every bit of advice provided in the article of the opening post, and the subsequent comments, that he would have won? Or is it the case that it didn't matter because Lesnar's wrestling was that much superior? Ooooorrr... is it that size was the overriding factor in the bout? Please clarify what you see as the main point. Whatever it is, the small guy's superior BJJ training and experience lost to the ape.

[datdamnmachine]

Is it your contention that if Mir had followed every bit of advice provided in the article of the opening post, and the subsequent comments, that he would have won? Or is it the case that it didn't matter because Lesnar's wrestling was that much superior? Ooooorrr... is it that size was the overriding factor in the bout? Please clarify what you see as the main point. Whatever it is, the small guy's superior BJJ training and experience lost to the ape.

Depends on how much BJJ experience you have...

Who knows what may have happened. It's in the past. But that is what this thread is for. To learn from the mistakes he made so that it doesn't get repeated. The fact is, if you had been reading this thread correctly you would understand that Mir didn't actually IMPLEMENT his superior BJJ training effectively in that match. It doesn't matter how awesome your BJJ is, if you don't implement it correctly, you are screwed. The fact is, Brock implemented the limited BJJ he has BETTER then Mir implemented the vast knowledge that he has. Implementation is key.

And yes, BJJ does allow a smaller person to defeat a larger person. In fact ground fighting in general does. If IMPLEMENTED correctly, taking someone to the ground helps to nullify a lot of the physical attributes someone may posses over you. It doesn't get rid of them. It helps mitigate them.

Of course there are exceptions but if you have been training on a regular basis, you would be proving yourself wrong, well, regularly.

[Gabetuno]

Hardly a mere Wikipedia quote. Pick up virtually any BJJ book or pick up thousands of Google results and come up with the same nonsense...

http://www.armlock.com/
"Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was specifically developed to allow a smaller person defeat a larger person by sophisticated application of leverage and technique. Gaining superior position on your opponent and applying a myriad of chokes, holds, locks and joint manipulations becomes the foundation for this fun martial art."

This is the same prop we hear from Aikido.

Your definition's sources isn't the issue here. It's your manipulation of said definition(s) to a false point. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu isn't superior to other arts, but it's practice CAN in fact negate size differences.

And I never stated that BJJ claims to be the end-all-be-all, though you might be led to expect otherwise by some its more prickly practitioners. I'm pointing out that it's BS that in itself it allows a smaller man to defeat a larger man, at least any better than boxing or other martial art.

It in fact DOES allow the smaller man to defeat the larger man better than Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, or other Martial Arts. This however, does not equate it to being a BETTER Martial Art, necessarily. This negation of size discrepancy HAS, however, been a flagship of the art, and is proven time and time again in the endless weight-classless tournaments that happen all over the country and world, both in gi & no gi, in which it's certainly never a given that the bigger man wins, or even the bigger man with equal or greater experience wins.

Is it your contention that if Mir had followed every bit of advice provided in the article of the opening post, and the subsequent comments, that he would have won? Or is it the case that it didn't matter because Lesnar's wrestling was that much superior? Ooooorrr... is it that size was the overriding factor in the bout? Please clarify what you see as the main point. Whatever it is, the small guy's superior BJJ training and experience lost to the ape.

Mir lost because he had a shit gameplan. Like it or not, I don't grapple a bigger man the same way I grapple a smaller man, whether I'm using my BJJ or my wrestling. Mir went in there, and put himself on bottom from the outset, going for a rolling leglock. He seemingly had NO FUCKING FORESIGHT THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN BEEFING UP HIS LEGLOCK D FOR THIS BOUT, got stuffed, and then ended up where he deserved to be, getting pounded into Italian meatball in shitty lockdown halfguard, laying on his side not doing anything aside from stopping Brock from passing. There were a LOT of things he could have done differently, but he didn't. In the face of adversity, he failed to change up his game plan and adapt, which is why he isn't going to be champion ever again.

Note: For everything I said about BJJ, I'd interchangeably use Sambo as well as Judo Newaza.

[theotherserge]

I think people want to hear my opinions...

Actually, we don't.

[UpaLumpa]

JavaRonin,
You seem to blatantly ignoring a key part of this all: Lesnar is not some unskilled brute. He is a skilled and still learning brute.

Judo and BJJ both do allow smaller people to beat larger people (any legit fighting style allows that) however there is a point where size differences are too large or where skill differences are too small where that is overcome.

Also, most of us don't give a fuck about the gracie propaganda party line.

[JavaRonin]

Your definition's sources isn't the issue here. It's your manipulation of said definition(s) to a false point. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu isn't superior to other arts, but it's practice CAN in fact negate size differences.

I manipulated nothing. The spin is directly from the sources. Lesnar's size advantage was brought up in the thread and I followed up on it. It's just that nobody likes to hear about it when the questionable claims of proponents within their system are put under a spotlight. If that's uncomfortable, then go send an email to those clubs to pull the simplistic claims from their web sites or write those authors who put it in their books. Until said misleading material is pulled, hey, it's fair game. That would be better than reacting like the Aikido and Wing Chun crack heads -- "Hey, they're not doing [blah blah blah] right!" Besides that, I completely agree with the other things you've written here and elsewhere.

UpaLumpa, I agree with what you wrote.

By the way, I train in Judo under Steve Scott's/John Saylor's system which puts heavy emphasis on the ground. I understand very well the advantages and disadvantages of these respective grappling styles. I've merely pointed out the dumbassery behind the standalone assertions from way too many BJJ/Gracie cultists granting this style's users some kind of feckin' magical ring powers in overcoming a big guy. I know from going against larger (and smaller) guys in randori that even the lesser skilled big guys will roll up the little feller unless his skill level and athleticism is really up there and/or he gets the surprise on his opponent first. Size remains a HUGE advantage in any fight and, sorry, it's highly irritating to see this glaring truth minimized. We can go on all day and night about how Mir shouldn't have fought on his back or how he fucked up the half guard, but it's highly likely he could have taken the fight from a different position and you would have seen the exact same result as Lesnar would have reacted and utilized with his size in a different manner to shut the small guy down.

[jnp]

Excised from: Stephen Kesting on Lesnar/Mir - No BS Martial Arts