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    Yello! Uh, yeah, another wing chun thread....

    Hi. I am what you may call a young chunner.



    STOP RIGHT THERE.


    Before you jump to any conclusions, I would just like to say that I mustered up all the pre-pubescent guts that I have to write the words "young" and "chunner" beside each other AND refer to myself in the same sentence because I would like some advice from you old *ahem* I mean experienced martial artists. :D

    The dilemma concerns the discipline of Wing Chun, which I have been practicing for three weeks now. I know this might be too short of a time period to judge the chun, but I am merely *questioning it. This is the second MA I have practiced in my life of 14 years. I have done TKD for half a year, albeit a useless half a year since I learned nothing that I couldn't do before. And that was six years ago and back in my motherland of the Philippines. Now that I am in Canada, I have had a bit of rekindling with martial arts after getting into a confrontation I couldn't avoid and spending hours after hours replaying the fight scenes of Yip Man :P (can't remember which one came first).

    I can't exactly say that I believe that Wing Chun is a perfect martial art. In fact, I believe that it has many flaws (no ground game, etc.) but as a stand-up martial art, I think it would shun/chun/tsun noobs if done properly. Did I mention I suck at being funny? Now, for the two classes that I have attended (three if you include observing), the sifu has taught me the Sil Lum Tao form. I am happily obliged to do so as I enjoy practicing the form. What I have noticed in the school is that there is a lot of sparring. And by sparring, I mean chi-sau. And by chi-sau, I mean with the sifu himself. Now, what bothers me is that a student that has been studying there for a year does nothing all day but practice his forms and do chi-sau with the sifu. Is this normal? Or should I be worried that he hasn't moved on from the sticky hands?

    #2
    There are ALOT of Wing Chun threads on here that you could read through.

    The Main Reason Wing Chun is unpopular around is here is a lack of Alive training found at most schools.

    If all you do is forms,Chi Sau and compliant drills...Find a new school!

    YouTube - MATT THORNTON ALIVENESS - martial arts most important thing Straight blast

    Comment


      #3
      Hello young one.
      I appreciated your writing style, as it's been cleverer than a lot of older posters on here, especially some other chunners' posts.

      I personally hate wing chun, completely. And I did it for four years.

      Originally posted by Kambei Shimada View Post
      There are ALOT of Wing Chun threads on here that you could read through.

      The Main Reason Wing Chun is unpopular around is here is a lack of Alive training found at most schools.

      If all you do is forms,Chi Sau and compliant drills...Find a new school!

      YouTube - MATT THORNTON ALIVENESS - martial arts most important thing Straight blast
      This is a great video for you to watch.

      As one biased stranger to another, I'd suggest drop the chun, pick up Muay Thai if you want to hit people, BJJ if you want to grapple, or judo if you want to destroy the fucking planet. But as I said, I'm biased.

      Good luck. Whatever you choose.
      Originally posted by Judoka_UK
      Judo is the PC to Sambo's Mac.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by 100xobm View Post
        As one biased stranger to another, I'd suggest drop the chun, pick up Muay Thai if you want to hit people, BJJ if you want to grapple, or judo if you want to destroy the fucking planet. But as I said, I'm biased.

        Good luck. Whatever you choose.
        AHA! Finally the truth becomes obvious. It's you judo fuckers who are causing the global warming with your sweaty randori! BOO TO DESTROYERS!
        Curiosity killed the cat. But damn it had a blast.

        Comment


          #5
          I'm going to pretty much echo what 100xobm said. I trained WC for 5 years on and off and got a great deal out of it at the time but was driven away becouse of politics and priggish instructors.

          I fancied a change and randomly took up Muay Thai and never looked back. The WC I did had some neat ideas but 95% of them were a waste of time and it was an apparantly 'proven combat' version, so trimmed down from the usual mentalism that goes with a lot of WC.

          I'm not saying go straight to Muay Thai mate but I'd certainly shop around a bit more before you commit too much time to this.
          Ne Obliviscaris

          Comment


            #6
            From all that I've read(and I've read quite a lot of _un threads, due to a mothlike attraction to the flame of kung fu), and a little of what I saw, chi sau is a poor approximation of sparring and _ing _un is a poor approximation of a martial art. I'll defer to the people who actually trained in it for five years illustrate that point, on account of their knowing exactly what they're talking about.

            Also, train Kyokushin karate, if you can find a good dojo*. You won't be quite as good at kicking as a Muay Thai guy or as good at punching people in the face as a boxer, but you'll come out of it as one tough ass motherfucker.

            Or, y'know, judo. It's cheap, widely available, and operates on the true principle of efficiency: Don't hit your opponent with your fist, HIT THEM WITH THE PLANET.

            *A good Kyokushin dojo is one you come home from on an adrenaline high and with a rainbow of bruises on your torso, thighs, and shins.

            Comment


              #7
              Hey man. I did Wing Chun for five years, starting at thirteen, under a training system very similar to what you described. I consider it a massive waste of time. Well, it wasn't a total waste - it improved my fitness, co-ordination and confidence when I was a weak young teenager. I started WC after I was bullied at school and the confidence it gave me, despite being false confidence, was enough to keep bullies away from me. It made me happy and gave me a fun after school activity. However, it didn't make me a good fighter at all.

              I've sparred against practicioners of Muay Thai, Sanda, boxing, Kyokushin, TKD, Judo, BJJ, Viet Vo Dao, Northern Shaolin, and Preying Mantis Kung Fu. Against some my shitty Chunning skills were great (eg, against the TKD and Kung Fu guys). Against pretty much everything else, I got destroyed.

              Wing Chun lacks aliveness in its training. It fails to emulate the reality of combat, and thus fails to prepare you for the reality of combat. The techniques themselves suck - the blocks/deflections rely on 'catching' the punches, which is actually really hard to do against an opponent who is seriously trying to hit you hard, and then retracting their fist after they strike. The footwork is linear and leaves you open to attack. The punches are weak and do not enable you to get your body weight into your strikes.

              The training methods are, for the most part, a waste of time. Chi-sao develops touch reflex/sensativity in your hands and forearms, which I've found useful in Judo, but it's really not that big an asset in fighting. The forms and the wooden dummy have no combat application. Some say that you can develop your striking force on the wooden dummy. Yeah, right. Try punching and kicking a bag instead, which you can hit with full force without the risk of breaking your knuckles or shins. Compliant drills are useless without aliveness. It's all a waste of your time.

              You're young and haven't gotten yourself too deeply involved in the shitfest that Wing Chun is yet. Get out while you still can, and learn something with valuable combat practicality.

              Comment


                #8
                Just to reitterate whats been said. I have trained wing chun for 7 years and still do but not as seriously because I love to play chi sau.

                BUT it only became effective when I started training something else and actually I have had to spend alot of time (and still do) de-programming alot of crap I picked up from wing chun.

                Saying that I would not be without the lessons I learnt doing chi sau.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by battusai View Post
                  Now, what bothers me is that a student that has been studying there for a year does nothing all day but practice his forms and do chi-sau with the sifu. Is this normal? Or should I be worried that he hasn't moved on from the sticky hands?
                  You've answered your own question with this. If after one whole year of hard training, they have not really done a realistic sparring match, they have not been training correctly.

                  Your options as I see it currently are:

                  a) Post the website of the school you attend (if they have one) so that other, more experienced bullies can show you things that they see about the website that may raise flags for bad training. They can supplement their arguments with good examples of training found on other websites, and even recommend a school in your area. Often, if you visit this second school, you'll see the difference in the training immediately.

                  b) Continue having doubts about your training and bring it up with your Sifu. Ask about sparring training, any questions on aliveness, and his opinion on cross training. If any of those three things are regarded negatively, then you probably are not training with an open minded teacher. This is generally a bad thing.

                  c) Continue training at your school and see where it takes you. Learn everything your teacher teaches to the "t" (Alliteration! Yay!). This may or may not be a bad thing, as he may teach you habits that are not very conducive to fighting a live opponent, or he may teach you some good habits such as keeping your hands up and your chin tucked.

                  Of these options (I'm sure there are more for you to really choose from, but these three sum it up well), "a" is going to be the most preferable. Bullshido is very concerned with consumer quality, and this will give the community more to go off of than just your word on how things are taught at your school. It also allows the community an open debate about the quality of the school, and will probably allow the bullies to show you other schools in the area you may be interested in cross training with.

                  The "b" option is also well and good, however it leaves a lot of the determination of quality up to you. This can be dangerous as most people's intuition about fighting and proper training methods is not enough to readily scout out a good school. You have said that you are not very experienced, so it would probably be best if you let the more experienced in the area help you to a proper opinion of the school in question.

                  Lastly "c" is the most dangerous (read: silly) of these three choices since it means that you will be at the mercy of your teacher's knowledge of the martial art. In this case, it would be wise to find out what experts say about your teacher's methods and training methods as to whether or not it is a good place to train. Which leads you back to "a" or "b".

                  Now that we've come full circle on that, let me say that bullshido is dedicated to quality control in the martial arts, and you will probably get a good grasp of what many well trained people think about the quality of your school, and what they believe you can or will learn there.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by battusai View Post
                    Now, what bothers me is that a student that has been studying there for a year does nothing all day but practice his forms and do chi-sau with the sifu. Is this normal? Or should I be worried that he hasn't moved on from the sticky hands?
                    Yes, this is normal.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by battusai View Post
                      Hi. I am what you may call a young chunner.



                      STOP RIGHT THERE.


                      Before you jump to any conclusions, I would just like to say that I mustered up all the pre-pubescent guts that I have to write the words "young" and "chunner" beside each other AND refer to myself in the same sentence because I would like some advice from you old *ahem* I mean experienced martial artists. :D

                      The dilemma concerns the discipline of Wing Chun, which I have been practicing for three weeks now. I know this might be too short of a time period to judge the chun, but I am merely *questioning it. This is the second MA I have practiced in my life of 14 years. I have done TKD for half a year, albeit a useless half a year since I learned nothing that I couldn't do before. And that was six years ago and back in my motherland of the Philippines. Now that I am in Canada, I have had a bit of rekindling with martial arts after getting into a confrontation I couldn't avoid and spending hours after hours replaying the fight scenes of Yip Man :P (can't remember which one came first).

                      I can't exactly say that I believe that Wing Chun is a perfect martial art. In fact, I believe that it has many flaws (no ground game, etc.) but as a stand-up martial art, I think it would shun/chun/tsun noobs if done properly. Did I mention I suck at being funny? Now, for the two classes that I have attended (three if you include observing), the sifu has taught me the Sil Lum Tao form. I am happily obliged to do so as I enjoy practicing the form. What I have noticed in the school is that there is a lot of sparring. And by sparring, I mean chi-sau. And by chi-sau, I mean with the sifu himself. Now, what bothers me is that a student that has been studying there for a year does nothing all day but practice his forms and do chi-sau with the sifu. Is this normal? Or should I be worried that he hasn't moved on from the sticky hands?
                      Unfortunately this is very common it seems. Most wing chun schools don't have a strong emphasis on application or technique. Alot of combat focus si put on chi sau. I'd echo the advice to check out how the sifu teaches, ask questions see if he's open minded and if so will tell you how to stop various punches, kicks and grappling techniques. Then once you have the move then try to apply it with other studetns. If no oen there is willing to spar with you then look around at other schools and try to make some freinds in those styles. Then you can spar with them. Alot of my wing chun punch/kick defense techniques has been refined not in the kwoon tiself but after my muay thai class with the amatuer fighters who have real expereince and know what works. So consider this and good luck in your training.


                      For the record I love wing chun and hope you can stay with it.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I have kept an open mind about the credibility of Wing Chun as a stand-up martial art judging from what some of you say, it may not be the most practical. But you know what?
                        I'm gonna let the kung-fu fanboy in me take over for a while. And I will ask the sifu whether he will go beyond chi-sau and look at my choices then.

                        However, some of you have brought up the subject of other martial arts. Would it be practical for a 14 year old to cross-train?


                        P.S. This is the site; http://www.tstvingtsun.bc.ca/Contact.html

                        I wouldn't be surprised if some of the students of that school goes on here.
                        Last edited by battusai; 7/15/2009 2:54pm, .

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by battusai View Post
                          However, some of you have brought up the subject of other martial arts. Would it be practical for a 14 year old to cross-train?
                          I would say it's entirely practical, and cheap, for you to cross train. Look at your school, do they have a wrestling program? Is there a community program? Is there a local Judo not-for-profit club?

                          Wing Chun is a very poor striking art, I would say you would be better served in a boxing gym developing good habits, and good cardio, but that's just my .02

                          Look for a wrestling team, or a Judo school, or a boxing gym and leave Wing Chun alone.
                          I do not aspire to be great, or even good, I hope to suck a little less then last class.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by battusai View Post
                            Christ on a cracker, the site design is hideous!
                            I do not aspire to be great, or even good, I hope to suck a little less then last class.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Jesus Christ, I don't even care if those are Canadian dollars(it's not like our American Money is worth much more anymore anyways), but that shit is expensive. For 120bux a month I could train myself in half in BJJ, and probably also Capoeira(not that I'd want to for any other reason than the lolz) at Tucson Brazillian Jiu Jiutsu, or 90bux for three times a week for BJJ at Debrazil. As is I'm paying 45bux for three classes a week of Enshin, and I get Matsuno-ryu Jujitsu four times a week for free* with my YMCA membership.

                              Basically, you're paying too much** for crap; Tell your inner kung fu nerd to STFU(I had to as well) and either pay the same for far better training in BJJ or less for still better training in Judo or boxing.

                              *One gets what they pay for, so what I get is unlimited weights, cardio, and decent, not good but also not terrible, RBSDish jujitsu. It works, for now, but will be replaced later... Probably with BJJ.
                              **Hey, I'm half Scottish and a quarter Jewish, I can't help being a penny-pinching cheapass.

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