1point2: Do you teach Judo at your Isshin-Ryu school?

[kenpostudent]

Anyone can teach a monkey to hold a stopwatch and hit a button once to start and a second time to stop.

You can't teach a monkey what to do when something goes wrong and how to prevent it from going wrong in the first place.

True, but I've never seen a coach do anything but give someone an icepack after they get injured. Big fucking deal! You assume a risk of injury by virtue of training... and until proven otherwise, I highly doubt they roll anywhere close to the intensity of a BJJ class... which is still not that intense. If they were doing standing randori, I would agree with CY. Q Faunce, Sirc, Hedge, et al. Since they are not, I see minimal risk of injury.

[Snake Plissken]

True, but I've never seen a coach do anything but give someone an icepack after then get injured. Big fucking deal! You assume a risk of injury by virtue of training... and until proven otherwise, I highly doubt the roll anywhere close to the intensity of a BJJ class... which is still not that intense. If they were doing standing randori, I would agree with CY. Q Faunce, Sirc, Hedge, et al. Since they are not, I see minimal risk of injury.

You assume risk based against reward, factoring in variables.
One set of criteria is your own self-set of circumstances (age, fitness, weight, skill, dedication) and that of your partner.
Another variable is the experience of the teacher and the quality of the teacher's training.

Another factor will be the constant of the intensity. 1point2 admitted to ramping up the intensity of their open roll, coinciding closely with his own increase in training.

This is paramour to taking a group of untrained or lightly trained persons and exposing them to elements they may not likely have been prepared for, increasing exposure to risk of injury and necessitating a greater quotient of care.

[kenpostudent]

You assume risk based against reward, factoring in variables.
One set of criteria is your own self-set of circumstances (age, fitness, weight, skill, dedication) and that of your partner.
Another variable is the experience of the teacher and the quality of the teacher's training.

Another factor will be the constant of the intensity. 1point2 admitted to ramping up the intensity of their open roll, coinciding closely with his own increase in training.

This is paramour to taking a group of untrained or lightly trained persons and exposing them to elements they may not likely have been prepared for, increasing exposure to risk of injury and necessitating a greater quotient of care.

So, tell the students to tap early and often. If they were doing leg locks and hard throws, I could see a problem. He says they are doing very basic techniques. Let me say, I don't advocate what he is doing, but I'm not going to condemn him outright until I see it for myself.

I've been doing MA since I was 10, on and off. Had I trained continuously, I would have about 10 years of experience... nothing to brag about. However, in that time, I have never once been seriously injured. I have never seriously injured someone. When training, I have sparred hard at least once a week, if not every class. My average training week has consisted of at least 3 classes, with a maximum of 8 classes. I repeat, I have never been seriously injured. I do not attribute that to coaches, instructors, safety standards. I attribute that to common sense and knowing when to quit. If I am hurt or if I feel unable to continue, I give it a rest till another class rather than push myself through the pain into injury. If his students did the same and cared for their bodies, I don't see an undue risk.

Let's keep in mind, 1.2 has been doing his system for nearly 9 years. That's a huge chunk of time.

[Snake Plissken]

So, tell the students to tap early and often. If they were doing leg locks and hard throws, I could see a problem. He says they are doing very basic techniques. Let me say, I don't advocate what he is doing, but I'm not going to condemn him outright until I see it for myself.

Tap early and often is fine when your instructor has a greater quantity of learning then the student.
At this juncture, he has 7 mos. of Judo with which he is attempting to teach from a position of authority on a facet of his training that has been dead for over 25 yrs.

I've been doing MA since I was 10, on and off. Had I trained continuously, I would have about 10 years of experience... nothing to brag about. However, in that time, I have never once been seriously injured. I have never seriously injured someone. When training, I have sparred hard at least once a week, if not every class. My average training week has consisted of at least 3 classes, with a maximum of 8 classes. I repeat, I have never been seriously injured. I do not attribute that to coaches, instructors, safety standards. I attribute that to common sense and knowing when to quit. If I am hurt or if I feel unable to continue, I give it a rest till another class rather than push myself through the pain into injury. If his students did the same and cared for their bodies, I don't see an undue risk.

So there was no instructor oversight that you factor in? Where and when and with whom you should spar? At what point you were ready to learn a technique? Building into you and your training partners lesson plans, things which become habit to keep you safe?

As an aside, did your instructors have more or less then 8 months of an art they were looking to integrate into their school's core curriculum?

Let's keep in mind, 1.2 has been doing his system for nearly 9 years. That's a huge chunk of time.

Again, he is wanting to up the quotient of something added by a man who, while that man was qualified to teach it, has been dead longer then you have been alive.
Now THAT is a huge chunk of time.

[crappler]

True, but I've never seen a coach do anything but give someone an icepack after they get injured. Big fucking deal! You assume a risk of injury by virtue of training... and until proven otherwise, I highly doubt they roll anywhere close to the intensity of a BJJ class... which is still not that intense. If they were doing standing randori, I would agree with CY. Q Faunce, Sirc, Hedge, et al. Since they are not, I see minimal risk of injury.

Well, with all due respect to the gods of BJJ, when men testosterone and grappling mix, it's to the fucking death. The only people who really relax are people with experience who can crank it up or down depending on how hard they want to spar and the people who have coaches watching them and reminding them to calm the fuck down.

I've seen gruesome injuries from randori done from the kneeling position, in a place with excellent coaching and supervision.

picture it this way: guy walks into your law office.

dipshit: "well, I've done seven months of judo. I teach karate where we don't and have not, done grappling with resisting opponents. I am now teaching them how to grapple with resisting opponents. Anyway, last week this guy dislocated his shoulder while posting."

Lawyer: "How much do you have to pay them?"

[Cy Q. Faunce]

Anyone with a background in mathematics will recognize this sort of construction. It is Math-ese for "The risk of injury is above zero and the growth in competence is zero; Therefor an injury will occur before competence does."

You're playing stupid word games. There is a significant chance that injury won't occur if 1point2 kept teaching compliant grappling, and your conclusion hand-waves that away when you conclude that his students are better off as things are than they would be if he did not supervise free randori. Let's not even talk about the development of bad sparring habits that isn't accounted for by your formula in any way.

The deficiencies are yours, and you don't know your tools well enough to use them this way. That's not trolling, it's an honest assessment.

[kenpostudent]

Tap early and often is fine when your instructor has a greater quantity of learning then the student.
At this juncture, he has 7 mos. of Judo with which he is attempting to teach from a position of authority on a facet of his training that has been dead for over 25 yrs.



So there was no instructor oversight that you factor in? Where and when and with whom you should spar? At what point you were ready to learn a technique? Building into you and your training partners lesson plans, things which become habit to keep you safe?

As an aside, did your instructors have more or less then 8 months of an art they were looking to integrate into their school's core curriculum?


Again, he is wanting to up the quotient of something added by a man who, while that man was qualified to teach it, has been dead longer then you have been alive.
Now THAT is a huge chunk of time.

I learned to fight by sparring people better than me. I got my ass kicked quite a bit at first, then I learned to hang. Instructors showed me technique, corrected mistakes, gave me input, told me why I was getting my ass kicked and what to do to fix it, ect. I don't think they contributed to my safety, though. They were never in a position to stop an injury from occuring. I had to take responsibility for that by training smart. I'll credit my first jujitsu instructor at age 10 with teaching me great ukemi. Other than that, everything else was just common sense when it came to safety.

I'm not devaluing the experience of a good instructor or attempting to argue that qualified instruction is not a must. I'm saying that I don't think even a qualified instructor mitigates the risk of injury in free rolling. It is ever-present. It is the responsibility of participants to practice safely.

Before I can render an opinion, I would really have to see what he did compared to what he now does. His 7 months in Judo is really irrelevant to me. If 1.2 is doing any sort of standing randori that includes tachiwaza, I would not be comfortable with that. If they are only rolling from a kneeling position, I would need to see the intensity level. Having rolled at several bjj schools, I can say that I have never felt a threat of injury or felt my safety was compromised in any way. Keep in mind, most bjj schools, at least here in Las Vegas (probably most everywhere else too) are full of guys who compete regularly. Most schools here in Las Vegas have at least one or two amateur or professional fighters. Some gyms are full of pros. Even is those circumstances, I have never felt at risk. If a guy rolls too hard, I just ask him to lighter or I tap out often. I seriously doubt 1.2's students are rolling that hard. I guarantee they don't roll as hard a competitors. If a total noob and complete hobbyist such as I can roll with guys who compete on a regular basis and stay injury free, I'm sure his students can.

[Cy Q. Faunce]

Oh, one more thing:

There is nothing obscure in that presentation.

LOL. It wasn't obscure to me, as you should have realized, since I drew a big red circle around the central problem with your conclusion. If you think that formulae like that aren't obscure to most of the readers here, though, you're smoking a very bad grade of crack.

That said, suggesting a model is not a bad idea. I don't think it really adds to our knowledge of the situation, given that every valid conclusion which can be drawn from it was already drawn in this thread, but it's not wrong to try it and see. However, you need to do a better job of acknowledging the problems with your model. Otherwise you're just a bad scientist.

[kenpostudent]

Well, with all due respect to the gods of BJJ, when men testosterone and grappling mix, it's to the fucking death. The only people who really relax are people with experience who can crank it up or down depending on how hard they want to spar and the people who have coaches watching them and reminding them to calm the fuck down.

I've seen gruesome injuries from randori done from the kneeling position, in a place with excellent coaching and supervision.

picture it this way: guy walks into your law office.

dipshit: "well, I've done seven months of judo. I teach karate where we don't and have not, done grappling with resisting opponents. I am now teaching them how to grapple with resisting opponents. Anyway, last week this guy dislocated his shoulder while posting."

Lawyer: "How much do you have to pay them?"

I hear what you are saying, but he's got 9 years of experience with these submissions and pins. He is certfied by his instructor. His students are willing participants in this class. They all sign waivers of liability. Does any of that count for something from a legal standpoint? I'll defer to your wisdom, since you have passed the bar, been to court, and handled clients. I am only a second year law student. However, I don't think this is so clearcut. Please educate me.

[1point2]

Please read my timeline again if you think that the free rolling I learned was 100% dead training. I told you fuckers once.

[Snake Plissken]

I learned to fight by sparring people better than me. I got my ass kicked quite a bit at first, then I learned to hang. Instructors showed me technique, corrected mistakes, gave me input, told me why I was getting my ass kicked and what to do to fix it, ect. I don't think they contributed to my safety, though. They were never in a position to stop an injury from occuring. I had to take responsibility for that by training smart. I'll credit my first jujitsu instructor at age 10 with teaching me great ukemi. Other than that, everything else was just common sense when it came to safety.

They instill in YOU and YOUR PARTNERS what is safe and acceptable behavior. You learn gym protocol from the higher ups and if one of the higher ups spaztards out on a noob and hurts them unnecessarily, there is sure to be hell to pay. These are things that have likely developed for years based on students respecting the teachers experience. A good instructor will help the senior ranks instruct a lower rank while sparring safely.

I'm not devaluing the experience of a good instructor or attempting to argue that qualified instruction is not a must. I'm saying that I don't think even a qualified instructor mitigates the risk of injury in free rolling. It is ever-present. It is the responsibility of participants to practice safely.

No but those are weeded out early through word-of-mouth, loss of students empty gyms and the ostrizisation from the style.

Before I can render an opinion, I would really have to see what he did compared to what he now does. His 7 months in Judo is really irrelevant to me. If 1.2 is doing any sort of standing randori that includes tachiwaza, I would not be comfortable with that. If they are only rolling from a kneeling position, I would need to see the intensity level. Having rolled at several bjj schools, I can say that I have never felt a threat of injury or felt my safety was compromised in any way. Keep in mind, most bjj schools, at least here in Las Vegas (probably most everywhere else too) are full of guys who compete regularly. Most schools here in Las Vegas have at least one or two amateur or professional fighters. Some gyms are full of pros. Even is those circumstances, I have never felt at risk. If a guy rolls too hard, I just ask him to lighter or I tap out often. I seriously doubt 1.2's students are rolling that hard. I guarantee they don't roll as hard a competitors. If a total noob and complete hobbyist such as I can roll with guys who compete on a regular basis and stay injury free, I'm sure his students can.

He has posted his competition videos and, as Cy is want to remind, is 1-6 in competition. Not bad for a new learning student but not what someone is looking for in their teacher.

Much of the discussion would be gone if 1point2's Judo coach gave his blessing to 1point2 teaching the Judo aspects of his Isshinryu training.

[1point2]

Much of the discussion would be gone if 1point2's Judo coach gave his blessing to 1point2 teaching the Judo aspects of his Isshinryu training.

As in, walk into the judo school for the first time, and tell this judo guy I've never met before, "Hi, I'm a karate instructor. At my school we do some groundwork. Is it OK that I continue to teach?"

[kenpostudent]

They instill in YOU and YOUR PARTNERS what is safe and acceptable behavior. You learn gym protocol from the higher ups and if one of the higher ups spaztards out on a noob and hurts them unnecessarily, there is sure to be hell to pay. These are things that have likely developed for years based on students respecting the teachers experience. A good instructor will help the senior ranks instruct a lower rank while sparring safely.


No but those are weeded out early through word-of-mouth, loss of students empty gyms and the ostrizisation from the style.


He has posted his competition videos and, as Cy is want to remind, is 1-6 in competition. Not bad for a new learning student but not what someone is looking for in their teacher.

Much of the discussion would be gone if 1point2's Judo coach gave his blessing to 1point2 teaching the Judo aspects of his Isshinryu training.

The competition vids must be in another thread... I have not seen them. I don't see that as a relevant point, though. If he were 6-1, would it be ok? Probably not. His technique probably needs some work... like anyone with 7 months of experience. So, in that sense, I'm not comfortable with him teaching or coaching for competition. He's not doing that, though. He is teaching moves he's known for 9 years!

Yes, we are in agreement in regards to his Judo instructor. Without his blessing, he shouldn't be teaching. I have always been upfront with all instructors in question when training multiple arts. If one had a problem with it, I would quit training with that instructor. That is just common courtesy and respect.

[Cy Q. Faunce]

As in, walk into the judo school for the first time, and tell this judo guy I've never met before, "Hi, I'm a karate instructor. At my school we do some groundwork. Is it OK that I continue to teach?"

You'll do anything to avoid admitting the truth to your judo instructor, won't you?

[kenpostudent]

You'll do anything to avoid admitting the truth to your judo instructor, won't you?

If they haven't had the conversation yet, they should. I would invite the Judo instructor to watch the class.