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    Yet another _ing _un thread

    Hello. First post here, read through a lot of threads, and things seem to go in circles, mainly ending up in wing chun bashing vs. people claiming deadly strikes.

    Myself, I train Wing Chun in London, but more for recreational purposes, so don't take me as reference for fighting capability.

    However, can I just ask a question?

    Do people here feel there is a difference in between various forms and approaches of Chi Sao? For example the difference between "static rolling then slap fighting" and a more mobile approach that incorporates footwork, angles, pressure, recovery etc.

    Static slap chi sao:

    YouTube - Wing Chun - Chi Sau Sparring 1

    More mobile approach:

    YouTube - Gor Sau Assessment Footage, March 2009

    YouTube - Ving Tsun Training in Schriesheim

    YouTube - KUNG-FU "ChiSao/TuiShu" TAOKWOON
    Last edited by peeowee; 5/24/2009 9:06am, . Reason: typo

    #2
    You didn't read enough threads. I'm wondering if you read any since, you bring up going in circles and your first thread is going to create that which you don't like.



    This very point has already been discussed. The consensus?

    Only chunners care about Chi Sau and its many so called variations. Pretty much anyone else says spar and quit dancing.

    Comment


      #3
      Alright. Thanks for the answer.
      Link to the relevant thread(s) please?

      Comment


        #4
        Ohh yeah ... "if I read any" ... I did. They're effing long, and it's easy to miss out stuff. I came across the term "aliveness", and the way these guys move about _looks_ alive to me.
        But yeah, please let's just abadon my thread if this has been discussed before.

        Comment


          #5
          You need to go watch the Matt Thorton video on aliveness:
          YouTube - MATT THORNTON ALIVENESS - martial arts most important thing Straight blast

          The closest video to aliveness is the chunners with the headgear chain punching each other.

          *edit*
          Thornton addresses the issue, with other three videos, in the beginning of his lecture.

          Can you figure out and name the problem?
          Last edited by It is Fake; 5/24/2009 10:20am, .

          Comment


            #6
            As you asked me:

            - Timing: People practicing to pull of moves agains a non-cooperative partner
            - Motion: I do see people moving about and
            - Energy: The videos are pretty much non-cooperative and non scripted, as far as I can tell. Maybe not in a gloves hard punching way, but yeah, I do see energy

            Thing about energy is that it needs to be a progressive thing, no? Speaking for myself if I was to come in to a class, and I get the shit kicked out of me, I'd probably walk out.
            If my trainer and training partners progressively raise the energy levels, to make me realize what's in store, but also leave me enough room for learning and to try to get my shit together, then I can make real progress.
            Bad habits can come out of to much pressure straight away. Videos of bozos pulling 1 million punches in a split second, while the student's on the floor, only tell me that the student gets good at covering up, if that makes sense ...

            In other words: First learn the basic drills and techniques, then insert a progressive level of aliveness.

            But yes, thanks for the video, a very good one to watch.

            Comment


              #7
              Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Hesperus View Post
                Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
                pounds my friend, pounds

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by peeowee View Post
                  As you asked me:

                  - Timing: People practicing to pull of moves agains a non-cooperative partner
                  - Motion: I do see people moving about and
                  - Energy: The videos are pretty much non-cooperative and non scripted, as far as I can tell. Maybe not in a gloves hard punching way, but yeah, I do see energy
                  You went to deep but these are some problems in the videos you posted.

                  The simplest problem with the Chi Sau you posted is addressed at 1:16 of the video.

                  Dead Patterns.

                  They go back and forth in a rhythm.
                  They keep the strikes at the same distance.
                  Basically they do a lock flow drill at high speed.

                  Thing about energy is that it needs to be a progressive thing, no? Speaking for myself if I was to come in to a class, and I get the shit kicked out of me, I'd probably walk out.
                  If my trainer and training partners progressively raise the energy levels, to make me realize what's in store, but also leave me enough room for learning and to try to get my shit together, then I can make real progress.
                  Bad habits can come out of to much pressure straight away. Videos of bozos pulling 1 million punches in a split second, while the student's on the floor, only tell me that the student gets good at covering up, if that makes sense ...
                  This is a Red Herring. You are now tailoring your argument to fit a specific defense. You spoke on aliveness.

                  This part of your argument is addressed and doesn't belong in the discussion.

                  Remember, you said
                  and the way these guys move about _looks_ alive to me.
                  Back and forth is not alive. Trading techniques is not alive.

                  Do you need the video where he talks specifically about adding levels of resistance?

                  Comment


                    #10

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Yes, a video link is always appreciated.

                      You see "back and forth" and "trading techniques". Happy to disagree, it still doesn't _look_ that way to me.
                      I consider this discussion going nowhere, so let's just leave it at that.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        CBF: Like a helmet thread on a cycling forum I guess. It's always like that, some people are new (like me) and some people had it all before. Impossible to read the whole forum though. So please stay alive and I promise I won't do it again :)

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by peeowee View Post
                          I consider this discussion going nowhere, so let's just leave it at that.
                          Of course it isn't you are a hobbyist chunner, by your own admission, defending their art.

                          Bullshido is not the place to ask questions about chun unless, you have videos of people sparring with resistance.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Welcome P.O.V.,

                            hope you'll have a fruitful stay on Bullshido.

                            A short notice about your original question - although I'm short of being a _un expert - I think what you're trying to compare are not 2 different approaches, but 2 different stages of the prescribed chun learning process.

                            As you build your technical basis, you're supposed to learn to roll hands to get used to the kind of sensitivity needed for chi sau to be possible. Then you add certain attacks and defenses, first in a prescribed sequence - the so called sections. Then you incorporate turning, later kicks and steps and when you're "good' with these things, you move to lap sau - which means you can "freely" engage each other with whatever technique, using steps and movement as well.

                            Basically you arrive to what is the closest to sparring within the traditional (not talking about the copyrighted word "traditional" here) wing chun world.

                            CLICK & WATCH
                            :
                            I got BULLSHIDO ON TV!!!

                            "Bruce Lee sucks because I slammed my nuts with nunchucks trying to do that stupid shit back in the day. I still managed to have two kids. I forgive you Bruce.
                            " - by Vorpal

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hmm, so where I learn it's like this:

                              1. Single Hand
                              2. Rolling
                              3. Stepping
                              4. Various drills, i.e. Pak, Lap etc
                              5. Chi sao with moving about, as seen in the videos
                              6. At some point there would be sth that we call "push and pull", which is a stationary drill, but more about balance, openings and momentum, and never about hitting

                              At no point do we ever just stand there and then start "bitch slapping".
                              Lineage is WSL -> NB -> Students, btw

                              Comment

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