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NOOB father wants most effective self defense for His Son

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    #31
    I had the same trouble as a kid because my birthday is December 9 and the cutoff for acceptance to school was December 10; so, in other words, I was always the youngest kid in my class. Through Junior High, I was also one of the smallest kids in my class because nearly everyone was at least a year older than me. So, my dad put me in a Japanese Jujitsu class where we did judo throws, pins, and randori.

    After about three months of jujitsu, I didn't have too many problems with bullies anymore. I realize those are different times than today, though. I had plenty of playground fights and earned respect quickly. I didn't know much striking, but I learned how to fight in a clinch and use throws (that is what we practiced in randori). It worked well for me, since all I had to do is cover up until I could grab the bully and then execute a throw.

    So, I think Judo, BJJ, or any grappling art would be a fine choice. Don't worry much about striking arts because most kids suck at it. Besides, most schools that teach striking to kids are McDojos, anyway. It might not be a bad idea to get some boxing gloves for your kid, though, and teach him how to avoid punches to get to the clinch. That will also help him overcome a fear of getting hit.

    Comment


      #32
      Most schoolyard fights start out with some shoving, pushing, tugging, and finally, punching. Some grappling training will turn that into, shoving, double-leg/marote gari/Baihana pretty quickly. You don't really need submissions to end most schoolyard fights, although it would make them pretty entertaining for the judo/BJJ guy. The only striking you really need in school is the kick to the groin.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
        Clearly you have very little experience with the combative aspects of Judo/Sambo/BJJ as each of them shows how to close the distance, clinch with the striker, and take them down and control them.
        Come on. You didn't say anything about taking it to the ground, you said
        Holding on to the other kid to avoid being hit
        Given the choice between realizing that your initial comment implied a clinch (and nothing more), and the assumtion that I am an idiot, choose the latter. Nice.

        Actually the question was which one to take up to deal with the bully issue. As has been said, joining a school team (wrestling) is likely to end all problems then and there. Just because of the social network.
        and of course you missed the part of my post where i said
        you should enroll him in wrestling as soon as it becomes available to him at school.
        Except it is not a one day suspension any more. It is a week with zeros each day in every class you miss. If you miss a test while you are out, its a zero. If you don't care about grades that's ok, and the bullies usually do not. HOWEVER, and this is the point, the good kids do and the bully plays on that as well. As such, dealing with the bully, and the insane school system, BOTH, need to be addressed.
        Are you actually raising a school aged child? I am. I am relating my current experience with schools, bullies, and punishment. Kosherkickboxer just finished a 1 day suspension for exactly this.

        I support early striking training because children are being threatened with striking. I would support a clinch/throw/pin defense as well IF it were drilled in an alive manner against real strikes. If this is what you meant then I agree. If not I strongly disagree.
        Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


        KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

        In De Janerio, in blackest night,
        Luta Livre flees the fight,
        Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
        Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by cyril View Post
          I have to disagree that striking will help more (even though SanDa is pretty awesome to see) than a good grappling or wrestling base for a child of any age (4-17)
          The reason I advocate SanDa is that it incorporates both striking and throwing... ensuring that the counter-strike throwing is drilled in an alive manner. Ideally this would be followed up with wrestling as soon as possible (in my son's case that was 7th grade). Let's be clear here: We are not talking about kids using a full grappling game, we are talking about some sort of pin. I agree that this is essential, and that's why I taught my kid how to hold mount before he ever learned to strike (around age 4). SanDa expanded to include basic grappling for the pin, and with less emphasis on kicks (and knees) would be the perfect art for kids IMO. They do not need subs; They do not need fully refined Thai kicks, or a killer guard pass. They need to know how to deal with punches, how to hit back with discouraging power, how to throw while being hit, and how to grapple for the pin and/or maintain mount. This is exactly what my kid was trained to do, and it has kept him safe so far. He may have been suspended a few times, but he is able to learn without living in fear of bullies. So far, so good.

          Striking sucks for kids of younger ages, but groundwork will stay with them.
          What exactly is this supposed to mean? That they suck at it, or that the learning process will be a drag? I don't see any basis for either one.
          Last edited by Matt Phillips; 5/19/2009 9:06pm, .
          Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


          KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

          In De Janerio, in blackest night,
          Luta Livre flees the fight,
          Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
          Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

          Comment


            #35
            I'll be another one to recommend wrestling. Particularly since it's something he might not have the opportunity to practice later on. I regret not getting into wrestling in grade 8 when it became available. If it's high school only, and your kid is still in elementary school, I'd go for Judo. It's got training with aliveness in a safe manner down. Pins in particular are a good way to handle school fights, as it's a "win" without doing any damage and getting into serious trouble.

            Comment


              #36
              <Come[/RIGHT] on. You didn't say anything about taking it to the ground, you said

              Given the choice between realizing that your initial comment implied a clinch (and nothing more), and the assumtion that I am an idiot, choose the latter. Nice.>>>

              You know, it always seems odd to me that people get so unhappy when someone disagrees with them, and presents that disagreement in a logical manner, they get so upset they project all sorts of things. I know what I said; calling you an idiot was not there, until now. I said you have not seen the combative applications of Judo. Anyone who had, (or Sambo or BJJ for that matter) knows that clinching then throwing to the ground are kinda what thay do. "Holding on to them" is the EXACT quote from most School Policy on what a Student can do to defend themselves. I am really sorry that my points have upset you. However, do not project your thought process into me. I am simply trying to share my actual experience with this issue, having ran a school for over 10 years and stood on many a Principal's desk on this issue.

              <<<Are you actually raising a school aged child? I am. I am relating my current experience with schools, bullies, and punishment. Kosherkickboxer just finished a 1 day suspension for exactly this.>>>

              No sir; I only ran a school for over 10 years, I only trained about 500 children in my time, I only turned out a dozen or so champions, and I have only been to 5 different schools over this issue. I live in the State of Michigan, but I have heard what happens here applies to most.

              I know for a fact once they hit High School, there is ZERO tolerance for the use of "Martial Arts" on other students. Were this not so I would not have to tell kids to bring dental floss to school to cut their birthday cake, as kids have been kicked out of school from bringing a small knife to cut said cake.

              <<<I support early striking training because children are being threatened with striking. I would support a clinch/throw/pin defense as well IF it were drilled in an alive manner against real strikes. If this is what you meant then I agree. If not I strongly disagree.>>>

              What you agree or disagree with is up to you. I will simply say that in once case I had a student who was bullied daily with no intervention from the school staff; the moment he "karate kicked" one of the bullies; HE not the others was expelled for, and I quote "Using a deadly martial art on a Student."

              I have posted the Stadion video on how to use Judo for Self Defense, and I think you will see we do deal with punches and kicks in an effective fashion; and hopefully one that will not get you expelled.

              In closing, ignore that aftermath at your own peril. Massad Ayoob has spent thousands of pages trying to tell people over the years that when the fight is over the fight has just begun. Best to learn that now.

              But its just my opinion, do anything you'd like.....

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                <Come on. You didn't say anything about taking it to the ground, you said
                Originally posted by Mtripp View Post



                Given the choice between realizing that your initial comment implied a clinch (and nothing more), and the assumption that I am an idiot, choose the latter. Nice.>>>



                You know, it always seems odd to me that people get so unhappy when someone disagrees with them, and presents that disagreement in a logical manner, they get so upset they project all sorts of things. I know what I said; calling you an idiot was not there, until now. I said you have not seen the combative applications of Judo. Anyone who had, (or Sambo or BJJ for that matter) knows that clinching then throwing to the ground are kinda what thay do. "Holding on to them" is the EXACT quote from most School Policy on what a Student can do to defend themselves. I am really sorry that my points have upset you. However, do not project your thought process into me. I am simply trying to share my actual experience with this issue, having ran a school for over 10 years and stood on many a Principal's desk on this issue.



                <<<Are you actually raising a school aged child? I am. I am relating my current experience with schools, bullies, and punishment. Kosherkickboxer just finished a 1 day suspension for exactly this.>>>



                No sir; I only ran a school for over 10 years, I only trained about 500 children in my time, I only turned out a dozen or so champions, and I have only been to 5 different schools over this issue. I live in the State of Michigan, but I have heard what happens here applies to most.



                I know for a fact once they hit High School, there is ZERO tolerance for the use of "Martial Arts" on other students. Were this not so I would not have to tell kids to bring dental floss to school to cut their birthday cake, as kids have been kicked out of school from bringing a small knife to cut said cake.



                <<<I support early striking training because children are being threatened with striking. I would support a clinch/throw/pin defense as well IF it were drilled in an alive manner against real strikes. If this is what you meant then I agree. If not I strongly disagree.>>>



                What you agree or disagree with is up to you. I will simply say that in once case I had a student who was bullied daily with no intervention from the school staff; the moment he "karate kicked" one of the bullies; HE not the others was expelled for, and I quote "Using a deadly martial art on a Student."



                I have posted the Stadion video on how to use Judo for Self Defense, and I think you will see we do deal with punches and kicks in an effective fashion; and hopefully one that will not get you expelled.



                In closing, ignore that aftermath at your own peril. Massad Ayoob has spent thousands of pages trying to tell people over the years that when the fight is over the fight has just begun. Best to learn that now.



                But its just my opinion, do anything you'd like.....


                You know, I am of two minds on how to respond to this. My first inclination is to respond like this:



                Sir, your accomplishments in the martial arts are praiseworthy, and you are my chronological elder. As such I often ignore or let slide comments of yours that, were they to come from a poster of lesser experience, would likely elicit a strong response. But in this particular case, a case in which my experience in the matter does in fact exceed your own, I find your posturing to be an indulgence up with which I can no longer put.



                Having roused me to action, the debate which will surely follow promises to be a veritable "War Of The Gargantuas", though unlike that gem of B-grade sci-fi goodness in which titanic misanthropes grapple for world supremacy, this epic features not shambling Technicolor ogres, but a pompous ass and a self-righteous prick. I leave it to your dubious analytic prowess to determine which is you, and which is not.



                You know, it always seems odd to me that people get so unhappy when someone disagrees with them, and presents that disagreement in a logical manner, they get so upset they project all sorts of things


                And there it stands: innocent, innocuous, reasonable on the face of it; the sort of thing we all might say after an encounter with a less rational soul. But let it be known, sir, that this subterfuge shall not stand. It was you, sir, not I who made this personal when you called into question my grasp of martial arts knowledge so basic as to be apparent to your average Sherdog.com blue belt, much less Bully in good standing and a member of your own class.



                For the record let me make it clear: Yes, you self-inflated baboon, I am aware that Judo, SAMBO and BJJ have combatives programs. Everyone is aware of that fact... Everyone who is Anyone, anyway. It is as if, confronted with another Human being who can not see with perfect clarity, the obvious truth of your position, an assumption of ignorance - or worse, irrationality - must be your reaction. For how could it be that I rational, thinking, thoughtful person armed with even the most elementary knowledge of the martial arts universe, would fail to see the apriori correctness of your claim. And when confronted with the imminently reasonable idea that it is strikers who know best how to clinch-to-avoid-strikes, your reaction is not one of a thoughtful man; Not one of a person engaged in a search for the Truth about protecting not only our meager selves, but the bodily and emotional safety of our precious children. No, sir, your reaction is as ideological as it is narcissistic; Reflexive and self-aggrandizing at its core. I have not disagreed with you as an equal. Rather, I have responded out of pure ignorance. It is as if your belief that no rational person could disagree with you leads you, inevitably, to the conclusion that the dissenter is compromised in some way, be it educationally, cognitively, or some other -ly for which the rest of us remain blissfully unaware.



                Has it ever occurred to you, sir, that clinching, throwing and pinning is as likely to land the child in trouble as striking? Has the junior Judoka not just, as many a Randorista is fond of saying, hit the bully with the "entire planet". Will the child not be seen by adults arriving on the scene

                as the dominant combatant, and the true aggressor, the victim?



                True, you can settle any doubts forming on the periphery of your conscience by imagining that our MTripp trained protagonist has simply used a leg sweep, or simple... well, trip, to bring his nemesis to the floor, and not dumped him unceremoniously on his cranium with Hane Goshi. But this, Mr. Tripp, is to miss my entire point. You are begging the question of whether or not our junior Jigoro will have the presence of mind to coolly use the lesser technique after getting rattled by a solid punch for what could likely be the first time in his young life.



                No, I will grant that there is much that goes on in the world of Judo pedagogy of which I am unaware, and it is certainly possible that there is some form of juniors "Combat Judo" going on beneath my RADAR, but given that the Russians are known to have "Combat SAMBO", and given as well that the juniors version of this sport is virtually non-existent in this country, you will forgive me if I doubt the likelihood of this actually being the case.



                Is it so hard in a community dedicated to the idea of pressure testing everything, to see the wisdom in giving our children the same opportunity? Why should a child not drill his throws and his strikes together? If he does not, he may find himself experiencing the same set of revelations once enlightened Fred Ettish, only on the playground floor.



                Yes, I realize that Judo is Judo, and there is no striking in Judo, and that is precisely why I think Judo is less suited to the task of juvenile self-defense than it might be. The throwing game in an sport like SanDa is ugly in comparison to Judo, but once trained in the sport a child will not just have confidence that he knows how to throw a striking opponent, he will know it, because he will have done it.



                Your attempts to disregard my arguments are offensive. They are offensive because this is not about MTripp, it is about real parents struggling to do what is best for their children. You may be impressed with your resume' as a substitute for actually having raised a child, but I am less so. You have, by your own admission, spent the years others here devoted to our children boinking showgirls and pulling rabbits out of your hat. I myself raised my son from an infant to the cusp of manhood by myself without welfare, child support, or a support network; Without "shared custody" or baby sitters. I raised him myself, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 11 years. And in that time I made sure he was learning not only to defend himself, but to have a moral framework for understanding how those skills fit into his responsibilities to himself and to others around him. This was not part of some Dojo curriculum, this was part of the on going, full time, and continuing task of raising him to be a productive and confident member of society. Something which I have done, and you have not.

                It is, sir, in this one regard: the raising of a child, and the choice of martial skill with which one acquaints their child, that I have the expertise and not you. So I will thank you to soften your tone, and listen to those who have done the work, and earned the knowledge of what is involved in this process. Just as I do for you in most, if not all cases.
                Last edited by Matt Phillips; 5/20/2009 8:39am, .
                Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                Luta Livre flees the fight,
                Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                Comment


                  #38
                  My second is to respond like this:

                  Lets just agree that the priimary recommendation is to Folkstyle.
                  Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                  KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                  In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                  Luta Livre flees the fight,
                  Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                  Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Okay, guys, this is noobtown. While the discussion is fine, if it continues, I will have to move it as, it is no longer about what will help the OP pick a school for the child.

                    It is now turning into a debate on SD and what is good for children to do at school.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                      Your attempts to disregard my arguments are offensive. They are offensive because this is not about MTripp, it is about real parents struggling to do what is best for their children. You may be impressed with your resume' as a substitute for actually having raised a child, but I am less so. You have, by your own admission, spent the years others here devoted to our children boinking showgirls and pulling rabbits out of your hat. I myself raised my son from an infant to the cusp of manhood by myself without welfare, child support, or a support network; Without "shared custody" or baby sitters. I raised him myself, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for 11 years. And in that time I made sure he was learning not only to defend himself, but to have a moral framework for understanding how those skills fit into his responsibilities to himself and to others around him. This was not part of some Dojo curriculum, this was part of the on going, full time, and continuing task of raising him to be a productive and confident member of society. Something which I have done, and you have not.
                      Your appeal to authority falls flat here because MTripp has more experience teaching children martial arts. The thread topic is not, "How do single parent?", but rather, "What MA is best suited for my child?"

                      Who's more qualified to answer this question, a random parent, or someone who has instructed hundreds of children in martial arts?

                      Edit: Thread needs to be culled in my opinion. This discussion is interesting, but it's veering away from the OP's question.
                      Shut the hell up and train.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        I skimmed the arguing so somebody might have already mentioned this.

                        I'd like to second, third and fourth Mtripp's suggestion of buying books on bully proofing. An ounce of self-assurance on the boy's part is going to be a hell of a lot more effective than just teaching him to kick ass. With the former, it's far less likely he'll ever have to do the latter.

                        Now then,

                        The most important part of this whole thing is to lay several choices of effective, sport-based martial arts in front of the youngster and let him choose which one he enjoys the most. Because he's only going to spend a tiny fraction of his life (hopefully) fighting. So whatever he does, there's also the concern that this practice becomes a healthy, productive part of his life. He'll be in better shape, physically and mentally and those feelings will help him steer through the rest of his life.

                        I would also strongly suggest wrestling and judo. Both of these things will introduce him to healthy competition and if he's having trouble connecting with other kids his age then being part of a team will force him to deal with all that socialization bullshit. That's important stuff. It might suck for him at first but eventually he'll learn.

                        And I'm speaking from experience. I was (still am I just hide it better) the sickly asthmatic, dyslexic nerd who never had any friends until highschool. I could have desperately used something like any of the above. I had to figure it out on my own.

                        Good luck with him and he's going to resist, probably. Don't force him, just a firm push here or there. Make him protest a lot and convincingly for good reasons before you let him stop whatever program it is you enroll him in.

                        Doesn't really matter which one as long as it's effective and he sticks with it.

                        Oh and for christ's sake keep him away from martial arts that tout self-defense as their primary goal. That's a pretty broad stroke I know, but often those arts yelling "SELF-DEFENSE!" the loudest are the ones most worth avoiding.
                        Last edited by JP; 5/20/2009 9:21am, .
                        Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
                        and remember what peace there may be in silence.
                        As far as possible, without surrender,
                        be on good terms with all persons.
                        Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
                        and listen to others,
                        even to the dull and ignorant;
                        they too have their story.

                        -excerpt of the poem called "Desiderata," by Max Ehrman, 1927.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          yeah, and can we get war wheel's handle changed to samuel clemens?

                          Comment


                            #43
                            fwiw, if my kid's getting bullied, i don't give a crap about school suspensions. i want him to mash the other guy.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by nohero View Post
                              yeah, and can we get war wheel's handle changed to samuel clemens?
                              I was going for Olbermann, but I'll take it.
                              Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                              KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                              In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                              Luta Livre flees the fight,
                              Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                              Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                                I was going for Olbermann, but I'll take it.
                                if you prefer, but the 'up with which' reference screams Twain. either way, nice scribbling.

                                Comment

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