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NOOB father wants most effective self defense for His Son

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    #16
    Ok.... IMHO

    1. Has to be a grappling art. USA Wrestling has outstanding programs and should be your first place to look. Those are going to be free, save for AAU memberships. I would look to Judo second and BJJ last. I base that on BJJ schools letting children (under 13) choke and joint lock one another, and that is a no-no.

    Wrestling around (yes, we know better) doesn't look as bad as if you kicked someone in the head or punched them in the face. Schools have a zero fighting rule, but you are allowed to hang on (clinch) so as not to get hit.

    2. At the same time, you need to get some solid "bully proof" books, and work on him to learn how to get along with difficult people. I say this because while the idea of the kid who is being picked on kicking the crap out of the bully makes for a great movie, the next day when the bully comes back with Dad's gun and kills your child is not such a great ending. Terrance Webester Doyle has some exceptional books on the subject.

    Finally, and I will try to be kind; take great care you do not project your childhood pain into your own child. None of us wants them to "suffer" as we did; sadly, its part of growing up.

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      #17
      Im going to go with folkstyle wrestling, Ill tell you why. besides the solid grappling skills, Your child will be part of a team, and develope friendship on that team, his accomplishments will be recognized by the school your son wrestles for.

      Having solid friendships and self-esteem based on actual hard earned achievement is the BEST bully-proofing a kid could have, and scholastic wrestling has these things.IMO

      Comment


        #18
        Mr Tripp,

        I disagree with your assessment that it is a bad idea for children to learn/practice chokes and joint-locks. These can be (and are, everyday) safely practiced under supervision in a controlled environment: children use them at my BJJ club with no problems, and I assume that most other BJJ clubs are the same. If children snapping each other's limbs was really such a big problem it would have already been addressed. BJJ clubs wouldn't allow kids to arm-bar eachother if broken arms were really a threat - there'd be no business whatsoever if parents thought their kids were going to get injured.

        I have witnessed children's BJJ classes at my club. The students all respect the tap, and understand the necessity of tapping once they feel the lock or choke coming on. The only injury I have ever seen in one of the children's classes was when one boy accidentally poked another in the eye with hs finger (no serious damage, just a few tears).

        It is important that students of a grappling art learn submissions for self-defence purposes. If a child trains in wrestling or Judo and learns to pin their opponent but never learns how to put their opponent to sleep via a choke, or to control/hurt them via a joint-lock, they will find themselves constantly fighting to maintain a dominant 'pin' position once they get on top of their attacker.

        If a boy was attacked and took his bully to the ground, pinning the bully would only help if he knew that help was coming. If he needed to escape, he could use a choke to put the bully asleep (or leave him coughing and gasping for air) and give himself enough time to run; or use a joint lock to (if absolutely necessary) hurt them enough (hopefully not permenant injury - as you've seen in many MMA fights even after a fighter taps they are still in a lot of pain from a well-applied lock, which can keep them on the ground clutching their arm for a few seconds at least) to enable escape. Even if they know help is coming, and simply need to hold/control the bully in the meantime, a joint-lock is far more effective for this purpose than a pin, as it forces the opponent to cease resisting (or else they risk serious pain). Pins are only useful if one knows that help is coming - for self-defence, it's important to know how to finish the fight.

        Even if the boy knew that help was on its way, rather than trying to hold his bully down in the meantime he could apply a juji-gatame or ude-garami (for example) and increase the pressure whenever the bully tried to resist, forcing the bully to comply and stay relaxed and still. This is a much more effective means of controlling an opponent than trying to maintain a pin, especially if the bully is bigger and stronger.

        Whilst I think Judo is a great martial art for kids to learn as it teaches them throws and break-falls, which children (and adults, of course) benefit from immensely, the lack of submissions in children's training is a major drawback.

        Comment


          #19
          Rask, there is some pretty solid physical evidence that indicates joint locks can be harmful to children's growth plates in their joints, even when there is no immediate pain when the sub is applied. You should look into it. There is also a good reason why chokes are not taught to younger kids, but I can't remember the details.
          Shut the hell up and train.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by jnp View Post
            Rask, there is some pretty solid physical evidence that indicates joint locks can be harmful to children's growth plates in their joints, even when there is no immediate pain when the sub is applied. You should look into it. There is also a good reason why chokes are not taught to younger kids, but I can't remember the details.
            If that's actually the case then I can understand that, but I've seen some BJJ guys who have been practicing since they were kids and they seem fine. If it really is damaging to growth and development then I concur, but if it's not really an issue then I maintain my point about the importance of joint-locks and chokes for self-defence.

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              #21
              Out of curiosity what age are you considering as kids?

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                #22
                I'd say Judo. It's cheap compared to other grappling arts like BJJ. Some BJJ school like the other posters mentioned don't allow joint locks and chokes for under 13. Judo has a lot of kids training also. It's a great primary art to learn to which he can branch out to strong striking arts when he's older. I think about this a bunch because I'm getting close to having kids myself and for the money and techiques Judo is best. Hopefully though, by the time my kids are 10 or so I'll be a purple or brown belt in BJJ and can just teach them myself ^_^. He'll probably get teased a bunch for doing a "gay" art like Judo as little kids like arts like TKD, Karate, Kung Fu and think grappling arts are gay and kicks and punches and flashy moves are awesome.

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                  #23
                  How old is your son?

                  If he's in his teens i would suggest BJJ or Boxing.

                  If he's a bit younger then Judo and/or Wrestling.



                  As a genral rule STAY AWAY FROM: Systema, Aikido,Wing Chun, Ninjitsu, Taekwondo, Kenpo.
                  Last edited by Kambei Shimada; 5/19/2009 10:19am, .

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                    #24
                    Under proper supervision I think joint locks and chokes can be taught...but again...needs close supervision.

                    My son is about to turn 6 and has been training bjj since the day he turned 5. He loves it. Recently they started adding a little MT to BJJ and he loves that too.

                    He has a bunch of friends who train TKD and even he realizes that TKD isn't great for fighting. He went to a birthday party for one of his friends at the local TKD school and everyone was told to "wear their uniform" if they had one. So...I have my boy wear his BJJ gi, and everyone else there has their TKD gi on. As kids do...they start messing around with each other. One kid starts throwing punches at my boy....my boy grabs him, throws him and then lands in mount and stays there cracking up. They kid starts basically crying so my son lets him up and continues to play.

                    After the party my boy tells me that he was worried because that other boy was a green belt and he was only a white belt. We have a great conversation and at the end he says "I guess it doesn't matter what color belt you are if you can't fight, right dad?"

                    A single tear of pride dropped from my eye that day...

                    :)

                    Comment


                      #25
                      When I saw "His Son" in quotes, I thought this thread would be about Jesus.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        As good as the advice to start with grappling is, I'm going to have to disagree. Your child is being threatened with a specific weapon (closed fist). He needs to learn to defend against that weapon by learning to parry, slip and (importantly) take punches. If he is afraid to get hit he will not make good self-defense choices, either over or under reacting to the threat at hand.

                        I suggest any of these three (in this order)

                        Boxing
                        Muaythai
                        Jeet Kune Do Concepts

                        Any of these will provide your son with the defensive skills and the contact necessary for him to deal with the punches coming his way.

                        He will eventually need at least a year, if not two, of grappling, so you should enroll him in wrestling as soon as it becomes available to him at school. Your kid should not be relying on subs for defense, as they will be perceived as gross overkill by his school.

                        Finally, IF you can find it (and that's a big "if") my highest recommendation would go to Chinese Kickboxing as found in SanDa gyms and many San Shou programs. This curriculum will give your son a counter-striking throwing game as well as the standard familiarity with effective punching and kicking. It is IMO the ideal mix.
                        Last edited by Matt Phillips; 5/19/2009 12:53pm, .
                        Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                        KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                        In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                        Luta Livre flees the fight,
                        Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                        Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                        Comment


                          #27
                          First, the world governing bodies for Judo and Sambo, on their own, realized that chokes and armlocks under 13 is very bad for the kids.

                          Now, I'd like to know where I said chokes and arm locks are not important in self-defense?

                          I am aware the BJJ world ignores the findings of the Judo and Sambo world; I would suggest you do not.

                          Now, as to striking options, if you want your kid expelled for a week, use them. Like it or not, the rule in schools is if both kids are fighting, no matter who started it or hit first, both kids are expelled. Take that up with them not me.

                          However, if one kid is holding on to the other kid to avoid being hit... that is ok.

                          As such I will repeat that grappling is the better choice. For all the outstanding points made about being on a "team" I am going to say wrestling first and foremost.

                          Sambo, Judo and BJJ follow in that order. But its just my opinion.

                          PS: Go to the governing body websites of Judo and Sambo and you can read the reports for yourself.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                            First, the world governing bodies for Judo and Sambo, on their own, realized that chokes and armlocks under 13 is very bad for the kids.

                            Now, I'd like to know where I said chokes and arm locks are not important in self-defense?

                            I am aware the BJJ world ignores the findings of the Judo and Sambo world; I would suggest you do not.

                            Now, as to striking options, if you want your kid expelled for a week, use them. Like it or not, the rule in schools is if both kids are fighting, no matter who started it or hit first, both kids are expelled. Take that up with them not me.

                            However, if one kid is holding on to the other kid to avoid being hit... that is ok.

                            As such I will repeat that grappling is the better choice. For all the outstanding points made about being on a "team" I am going to say wrestling first and foremost.

                            Sambo, Judo and BJJ follow in that order. But its just my opinion.

                            PS: Go to the governing body websites of Judo and Sambo and you can read the reports for yourself.
                            Suspension or not, my point is that the kid needs to know how to deal with being punched. Please enlighten me on which techniques from either Judo or Wrestling will successfully allow him to "(hold) on to the other kid to avoid being hit". The set of techniques you are referring to belong to the boxer's (and Thaiboxer's) clinch.

                            I will say that as a kid I did have success with the full nelson in this regard. Is that what you meant?

                            Please don't take this as a condemnation of the jacket grappling styles. I do, after all, have my own SanDa trained kid in SAMBO as well. The question regards which sport to take up first.

                            Blasting the bully in the nose: 1 day suspension
                            Getting an education free from fear of bullies: priceless
                            Last edited by Matt Phillips; 5/19/2009 3:32pm, .
                            Now darkness comes; you don't know if the whales are coming. - Royce Gracie


                            KosherKickboxer has t3h r34l chi sao

                            In De Janerio, in blackest night,
                            Luta Livre flees the fight,
                            Behold Maeda's sacred tights;
                            Beware my power... Blue Lantern's light!

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by War Wheel View Post
                              Suspension or not, my point is that the kid needs to know how to deal with being punched. Please enlighten me on which techniques from either Judo or Wrestling will successfully allow him to "(hold) on to the other kid to avoid being hit". The set of techniques you are referring to belong to the boxer's (and Thaiboxer's) clinch.

                              I will say that as a kid I did have success with the full nelson in this regard. Is that what you meant?

                              Please don't take this as a condemnation of the jacket grappling styles. I do, after all, have my own SanDa trained kid in SAMBO as well. The question regards which sport to take up first.

                              Blasting the bully in the nose: 1 day suspension
                              Getting an education free from fear of bullies: priceless
                              If the kid is a regular at a BJJ or Judo gym, taking a punch or two to get into a good position to keep further damage is a minimal worry. Striking sucks for kids of younger ages, but groundwork will stay with them. Within 6 months, they should be competent enough to hold someone from brutalizing them.

                              Striking will teach you to take a punch. It will teach you to take a lot of punches. But grappling will teach them a way to completely shut off their opponent when the game goes to the ground which is far safer for both of the two involved. Also, even striking a fighting pose at a school will probably get the kid in trouble, and if the kid takes down the bully and holds him there, at least both parties will take minimal damage.

                              I have to disagree that striking will help more (even though SanDa is pretty awesome to see) than a good grappling or wrestling base for a child of any age (4-17)

                              Comment


                                #30
                                <<<Suspension or not, my point is that the kid needs to know how to deal with being punched. Please enlighten me on which techniques from either Judo or Wrestling will successfully allow him to "(hold) on to the other kid to avoid being hit". The set of techniques you are referring to belong to the boxer's (and Thaiboxer's) clinch.>>>

                                Clearly you have very little experience with the combative aspects of Judo/Sambo/BJJ as each of them shows how to close the distance, clinch with the striker, and take them down and control them.

                                <<<I will say that as a kid I did have success with the full nelson in this regard. Is that what you meant?>>>

                                You could, but I find any pin works well in the world of the schoolyard brawl.

                                <<<Please don't take this as a condemnation of the jacket grappling styles. I do, after all, have my own SanDa trained kid in SAMBO as well. The question regards which sport to take up first.>>>

                                Actually the question was which one to take up to deal with the bully issue. As has been said, joining a school team (wrestling) is likely to end all problems then and there. Just because of the social network.

                                <<<Blasting the bully in the nose: 1 day suspension
                                Getting an education free from fear of bullies: priceless>>>

                                Except it is not a one day suspension any more. It is a week with zeros each day in every class you miss. If you miss a test while you are out, its a zero. If you don't care about grades that's ok, and the bullies usually do not. HOWEVER, and this is the point, the good kids do and the bully plays on that as well. As such, dealing with the bully, and the insane school system, BOTH, need to be addressed.

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