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    Bak Fu Pai

    Originally posted by SixStringFist
    Before I forget....isn't White Tiger Kung Fu another name for Chin-Na? I forgot to ask my sifu about that tonight. Anyone know?
    No, it's not. But before I get to that, let me give my (long-winded) background and thoughts regarding BFP for posterity.

    Bak Fu Pai

    For several months I studied BFP / 5 Ancestors (or 18 Daoist Palms, or Fae Fung San Something [Flying Phoenix Cleasing something or other]--whatever they call their qigong forms). This was at a small gym, downtown San Diego, run by Rich Robson (sp?). He's certified to teach by Doo Wai. Given that Rich wasn't about making water boil magically, or claiming he could break things, and basically just said "take what works from this and leave the rest", and seemed to be able to teach me some things (and the price was right)--all this made me feel like it was a good place to study.*

    From my personal, limited experience at one BFP gym, my take on the system is this: as interpreted by sifu Robson, it's very similar to Yiquan. There are not really any "fixed" sets or motions at the core of it. "There are 10,000 moves, but only 1 movement"--i.e., the sets are just a means to focus on the underlying principles (balance, posture, spatial awareness, tracking, &c) that should spontaneously go into every move. So, theoretically, any set will work (though some are better suited to particular goals than others). The BFP three or four sets I learned (Mou Hing I think?) borrow heavily in form and execution from the soft internal schools, but also add some moves from the external schools (mostly kicking and legwork), and have some of the explosive jin-generating moves from like in Xingyi, &c. And we'd also do a faster variation of some of the sets as well.

    I've heard people say BFP is just thinly guised Pai Mei or borrows heavily from it, but I can't comment on that myself as I've only ever read about Pai Mei in books (and what I've read sounds a bit different [e.g., the leading foot is always opposite the leading hand in Pai Mei], though both systems do apparently concentrate on striking pressure points with "phoenix eye fist" [where the index finger is held so that first knuckle points out rather than in towards thumb]--a trait shared with chuku).

    The qigong was pretty average. One point to note in that regard is the "reverse breathing"--even if this is a valid technique rather than something Doo Wai just made up, it can be harmful to the muscles of the diaphragm (especially in conjunction with the lung compression and dantien cultivation techniques). However, I did find that, used gently for soft qigong, it seemed beneficial to relaxation and body awareness. Still, I recommend normal diaphragm breathing when generating fajin unless you know what you're doing, or like hernias. (I'm not a doctor or a teacher--eveything I say is just my opinion, and if you listen to me, you'll die. So don't listen to me.)

    As for the cirriculum, I really liked it (again, this may just be sifu Robson's way of doing things). We'd start with about 15 minutes of rooting. Then we'd start with a few soft qigong sets or breathing for about 20 minutes, then set do some BFP sets for about 30 minutes, then we'd do partnered applications (which usually involved practicing take-downs, qinna and counters). After class, we could do free sparring if we liked. Oh, and we'd also practice falling techniques from time to time (i.e., ways to take a throw without taking major damage).

    So, in all, it was worth my time and money.** Had fun, learned some things. YMMV.

    Qinna

    OK. So now, that's BFP (or my limited experience of it). What is qinna? Qinna means something to the effect of "catching and holding". In other words, trapping, sticking, joint locks, leverage, so forth. It is the ancestor of Akido / (B)JJ / Small-circle JJ. It has techniques that are very similar to or the same as techniques found in these and other "grappling" martial traditions. Jwing Ming Yang has an awesome book on the bio-mechanics and applications of some of the techniques, but the title escapes me. Like all other TCMAs, however, it is presented in a very flashy way in HK movies (a good example is the opening scene of Fist of Legend). In reality, when combined with some type of shoot/throwing technique (e.g., suaijiao) and TCMA hand and leg work, you get a pretty well-rounded MMA. In fact, I understand the Chinese military train in a form of changquan + suaijiao + qinna. Eagle Claw is probably the most famous example of a specialized application of qinna.

    Ah, just found a link to Dr. Yang's site. The book is Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na. They also appear to be holding a seminar on the topic in Boston: http://www.ymaa.com/seminars/boston/qin-na Also, looks like youtube has a number of demo videos showing qinna techniques (e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1X1OMVlXpg).

    Ps. Anybody in the San Diego area who is interested in internal TCMA, check out http://www.taoistsanctuary.org/ for dates to play taiji with Chen Xiao Xing and Chen Bing! (Man I wish I still lived in SD!)

    ----

    *From the outset, however, I called bullshido on Wai's claims of a 400-year-old lineage for a system nobody's ever heard of--I mean this is in a town with several large (Fut San) CLF gyms among others--I even got to see Doc Fai Wong doing some live demos! Maybe in Podunk MS, where every chinese person can automatically fly and shoot invisible lasers from their eyes, just claiming a pedigree will cut it, but not in SD.

    **The ditdajow they used was great. I have a photocopy of the recipe, but unfortunately I spilled something on it, and it was folded up at the time, so it stuck together. Only about half the ingredients are legible (not that I read Chinese) after peeling it apart. :( I've seen some other recipes sold by Lacy and others, but they don't appear to be the same.
    Last edited by EvaUnit001; 4/21/2009 3:03am, .

    #2
    Follow what I say...not what I've done

    Looking over the past posts from Doo Wai and others here, I have to say that I feel they are not living up to the BFP creed. I pledged this creed during the short time I studied BFP, and I expect it to be binding, for the lowest student to the grand master.

    Originally posted by BFP Creed
    Respect your country, respect the people.
    Respect your Shi Fu, respect all martial arts.
    Learn righteous, learn magnanimous, learn Kung Fu.
    If you are able to accomplish the art, be humble.
    A master of the art
    does not abuse his knowledge by using it wrongfully.
    If a person is not a righteous person, he must not be taught even if he offers
    you ten thousand ounces of gold.
    If he is a relative and is not righteous, he may not be taught.
    If he is a relative and is righteous, he shall be taught.
    If you are able to learn Bak Fu Pai's Fist and Staff, it may look like a useless
    rock, but treat it as a brick of gold.
    From my own personal perspective, it looks not to be humble to redress mockery with scorn, and it appears abusive to try to bully recognition of the system. There is a difference between meeting challenges head-on and calling people scum, &c. All of this is not needed. If BFP is a worthwhile system, as it was for me, then let it stand on its own merits, rather than bullying and name-calling. "It is not noble to kill a wounded man." So it is not noble to scorn the ignorant. If people are speaking from malice, with no understanding, then to trample them just adds to your shame.

    Ps. I'm not saying anyone from the previous threads are ignorant or whatever, I'm just making a point.
    Last edited by EvaUnit001; 4/21/2009 4:47am, .

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by EvaUnit001 View Post

      Ps. I'm not saying anyone from the previous threads are ignorant or whatever, I'm just making a point.
      For several months I studied BFP
      OK. So now, that's BFP (or my limited experience of it)
      I hope not.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by It is Fake View Post
        I hope not.
        :5huh:

        That first quote from the second post had nothing to do with the other two quotes from the first post. In the first post I was explaining my experience with BFP as a system. In the second, I was taking about the conduct of Doo Wai and his students in other topics I've seen on the boards. And even if they were somehow related, wtf does "I hope not" mean? You hope that's not what BFP teaches? You hope that people are ignorant? You hope I am calling people ignorant? Your citations and comment make no sense. Please hang up and try your call again.

        Comment


          #5
          Tried again and it was routed through YMAS.

          Comment


            #6
            Sorry...

            Originally posted by It is Fake View Post
            Tried again and it was routed through YMAS.
            Gotcha. Ten fingers pointing back. Sorry about that. *salutes*

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by EvaUnit001 View Post
              Qinna

              OK. So now, that's BFP (or my limited experience of it). What is qinna? Qinna means something to the effect of "catching and holding". In other words, trapping, sticking, joint locks, leverage, so forth. It is the ancestor of Akido / (B)JJ / Small-circle JJ.
              ancestor?
              proof please.
              For an ancestor of things like jiu-jitsu and judo it sure is crappy.


              It has techniques that are very similar to or the same as techniques found in these and other "grappling" martial traditions.
              yeah but then needlessly more complicated and way more inefficient.

              Jwing Ming Yang has an awesome book on the bio-mechanics and applications of some of the techniques, but the title escapes me. Like all other TCMAs, however, it is presented in a very flashy way in HK movies (a good example is the opening scene of Fist of Legend).
              i wouldnt want to use movies as an example.

              In reality, when combined with some type of shoot/throwing technique (e.g., suaijiao) and TCMA hand and leg work, you get a pretty well-rounded MMA.
              No you don't.
              You don't know what you are talking about.
              suaijiao is very sloppy judo with dangerous stances (dangerous to the practisioner, not to the opponent)
              Keep in mind you only trained for a couple of months, don't assume so much.

              In fact, I understand the Chinese military train in a form of changquan + suaijiao + qinna. Eagle Claw is probably the most famous example of a specialized application of qinna.
              just that the military trains something doesnt validate a style.
              ive seen several youtube videos of marines and special forces training crappy ma's.



              *From the outset, however, I called bullshido on Wai's claims of a 400-year-old lineage for a system nobody's ever heard of--I mean this is in a town with several large (Fut San) CLF gyms among others--I even got to see Doc Fai Wong doing some live demos! Maybe in Podunk MS, where every chinese person can automatically fly and shoot invisible lasers from their eyes, just claiming a pedigree will cut it, but not in SD.

              **The ditdajow they used was great. I have a photocopy of the recipe, but unfortunately I spilled something on it, and it was folded up at the time, so it stuck together. Only about half the ingredients are legible (not that I read Chinese) after peeling it apart. :( I've seen some other recipes sold by Lacy and others, but they don't appear to be the same.
              [/quote]

              You do CLF nowadays?
              That would explain.

              Comment


                #8
                EvaUnit001- if you find yourself in San Diego again, drop me a line- we spar every Saturday afternoon in Balboa Park, and are always interested in sparring other practitioners. Welcome to Bullshido.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by CodosDePiedra View Post
                  EvaUnit001- if you find yourself in San Diego again, drop me a line- we spar every Saturday afternoon in Balboa Park, and are always interested in sparring other practitioners. Welcome to Bullshido.
                  codos...you cruisin again?
                  carefull, she could be a minor!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Lebell View Post
                    codos...you cruisin again?
                    carefull, she could be a minor!
                    Yeah man, those shovels and mining boots are fucking brutal...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      zodiac killer?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Umm...version2

                        Originally posted by Lebell
                        ancestor?
                        proof please.
                        For an ancestor of things like jiu-jitsu and judo it sure is crappy.
                        Your proof please? What's sauce for the goose...

                        Originally posted by Lebell
                        i wouldnt want to use movies as an example.
                        Ummm. What? Since I said that qinna is portrayed unrealistically in some movies, therefore I think unrealistic portrayals are true? What are you talking about?

                        Originally posted by Lebell
                        suaijiao is very sloppy judo with dangerous stances (dangerous to the practisioner, not to the opponent)
                        Keep in mind you only trained for a couple of months, don't assume so much.
                        I only trained in BFP for a few months. I've trained in TCMA for about 7 years. But it's true--some forms of suaijiao are just eye-candy. But to discount the entire art-form, you must know something the rest of us don't. Please share your enlightened knowledge with use.

                        Originally posted by Lebell
                        just that the military trains something doesnt validate a style.
                        ive seen several youtube videos of marines and special forces training crappy ma's.
                        Indeed. I only posted that information to quell the idea that TCMA is "outdated" or "ineffefective". If the milatary uses it, it must at least be effective as a fighting style, even if it is not the most effictive.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Humanzee View Post
                          Yeah man, those shovels and mining boots are fucking brutal...
                          MISINTERPRETATION LULZ!

                          This is the ultimate hangover cure joke.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by EvaUnit001 View Post
                            Indeed. I only posted that information to quell the idea that TCMA is "outdated" or "ineffefective". If the milatary uses it, it must at least be effective as a fighting style, even if it is not the most effictive.
                            Nah, not really. The military uses guns, and bombs, and tanks to be effective at their job. H2H training is mostly there to instill fighting spirit, rather than to teach the troops to go out and punch the opposing army.

                            That the military uses any art means, frankly, squat.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by EvaUnit001 View Post
                              Your proof please? What's sauce for the goose...
                              God you're dumb...


                              Originally posted by Eva
                              Ummm. What? Since I said that qinna is portrayed unrealistically in some movies, therefore I think unrealistic portrayals are true? What are you talking about?
                              God you're dumb, i hope you can at least cook and get dinner on the table in time...


                              Originally posted by Eva
                              I only trained in BFP for a few months. I've trained in TCMA for about 7 years. But it's true--some forms of suaijiao are just eye-candy. But to discount the entire art-form, you must know something the rest of us don't. Please share your enlightened knowledge with use.
                              God you're dumb...
                              Where's the us?
                              Is it you and the labmonkey you share a brain with?
                              I don't have enlightened knowledge (passive agressive much?) i did train with the former chinese national champion on several occasions.
                              Suijiao is okay for fun but to me it's like a sloppy mix together of mongolian wrestling some indiginous chinese stuff and stuff they stole from judo.
                              they even had forms.

                              But hey,i properly didnt experience and train the proper suijioa right?


                              Originally posted by Eva
                              Indeed. I only posted that information to quell the idea that TCMA is "outdated" or "ineffefective". If the milatary uses it, it must at least be effective as a fighting style, even if it is not the most effictive.
                              GOD YOU ARE SO DUMB!!!
                              There are segments in the german military that used wing chun as a h2h system.

                              please, lurk more, stay in newbietown or go drop the kids of at soccerpractise mkay?

                              Comment

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