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Re:Wing Chun does not work?

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    Re:Wing Chun does not work?

    This is quoted from another thread in YMAS here:
    No BS Martial Arts - View Single Post - Russian Wing Chun Vs Russian Military hand to hand (spas) A serious discussion
    I made a new topic in order to slow down the chun nuthuggery/ anti-nuthuggery cycle on that useful thread.

    Originally posted by ignatzami View Post
    As an ex-Chunner of Ip Man's line....

    Wing Chun does not work.

    Let me elaborate.

    Wing Chun as a system is flawed, irreparably. Bridging range does not work unless your opponent also wants to stay in bridging range. Once you leave that very slim space most of the Chuns techniques no longer apply or loose a large part of their effectiveness.

    . . . Skipping this logical argument - it is a good argument - see original post....

    And that is why the video will never appear, why Wing Chun will never enter the cage, because the guys teaching Wing Chun profit by keeping it off the nets, and out of the cage.
    You are of course right about no one in their right mind staying in the bridging range and it is indeed a very slim space. I have seen with my own two eyes (believe me or not as you will, I am unable to back it up) on multiple occasions, near pure wing chun being used to quickly finish fights against aggressive opponets, against multiple opponents (multiple vs multiple, but outnumbered) and to return stolen valuables from a fleeing theif (lifting nut kick FTW). (And for the record, I never saw the pidgeon toed stance used in any of them.) In the situations where it was one on one and the two were squared off and both were equally ready for the attack, wing chun did not work nearly as well as it did in other situations. It however seemed to do very well in situations where a strong element of suprise was involved, either the chunner initiating the attack, or the other guy was trying to get a jump on the chunner.

    I do not believe in the sport vs street seperation, but there seems to be something special about a duel - like atmosphere that wing chun does really badly at in my observation.

    I don't get it, but those experiences make me wonder -
    Here at bullshido or elsewhere on the internet, I can't find any evidence like I've seen, though my memory of these events contradicts some of the excellent reasoning and evidence I find here.

    It is a mystery to me, and I can't resolve it.

    #2
    I have seen people spazz out in fights and win in real situations

    Spazzing out however is not really a viable technique in that

    a) it depends on surprise - which you8 may not always have

    b) Hard to sustain

    c) falls apart against real skill.

    I have always felts that plowing someone in real life with a series of chain punches probably works a lot of the time due to the other aggressor not having any skill or fighting experience IE drunken idiot.

    So I don't think it's its self a bad thing as a self defense move for a street fight but its limited.

    Comment


      #3
      What Goju-Joe said. Additionally:

      You may have an impression of how Wing Chun works in such situations, but that doesn't provide you with a comparison against anything else. How would those Chunners have done had they been, say, boxers? Better (as I'm inclined to suspect), worse, equally well? What if they had no training whatsoever? --You seem to be conflating correlation with causation: "Someone did something Chun-like, and happened to come out on top" does not necessarily imply that "because he did something Chun-like, he came out on top". For all we know, the victors in those scenarios may have come out on top not thanks to, but in spite of their style.

      Comment


        #4
        The thing about that is that Aikido also works brilliantly on someone who has no idea what's going on. Drunk people are totally vulnerable to be grabbed by the arm and dragged around in a circle and knocked down.
        If Chunners are claiming SOLELY that their art can be used to beat up drunk people if you surprise them then I have no issue with it.
        If they want to make claims beyond that then I'ma drop some fools on their heads...

        Comment


          #5
          I don't have the burning hatred that most people have for Wing Chun, however, a martial art that does well against the lowest common denominator, and that claim is backed up for the most part with anecdotal testimony, just does not appeal to me.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by 8bit View Post
            In the situations where it was one on one and the two were squared off and both were equally ready for the attack, wing chun did not work nearly as well as it did in other situations. It however seemed to do very well in situations where a strong element of suprise was involved, either the chunner initiating the attack, or the other guy was trying to get a jump on the chunner.

            I do not believe in the sport vs street seperation, but there seems to be something special about a duel - like atmosphere that wing chun does really badly at in my observation.
            So the Chun only works when you FOOM FOOM FOOM in da Back Room?

            The mysterious "duel-like" atmosphere you refer to happens when the chunner's opponent has actually trained.

            Someone with a modicum of real training will consistently use good footwork to maintain distance and elude the "chun bridging range", or crash that crap and dominate them with a superior clinch or dirty boxing.

            Comment


              #7
              Bumpin in, wanna read.
              www.childsplaycharity.org

              Comment


                #8
                I somehow knew that post was going to get its own thread.

                Comment


                  #9

                  Comment


                    #10
                    FOOM FOOM ZOOM ZOOM SIR COULD YOU FOOOM ZOOM ZOOM FOOM PLEASE BACK FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM UPPPPPP!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by 8bit View Post
                      I made a new topic in order to slow down the chun nuthuggery/ anti-nuthuggery cycle on that useful thread.

                      You failed.


                      Sheesh. When will everyone get it that it's the hands that do the talking?

                      Show:

                      1. The elites of the style competitive with the elites other styles under a decent ruleset required to showcase the result of training (SanDa)

                      2. A demonstrable increase in fighting skill for the average practitioner.

                      3. Less dorks being produced.


                      Until these are met, it deserves all the abuse - both called and uncalled for - it gets from the fighting community.

                      Tough luck, too bad. Deal with it, contribute to making the above criteria happen, or shut your whiny egotistical pie hole already.
                      Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
                      "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

                      "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

                      My Bullshido fan club threads:
                      Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
                      Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
                      Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
                      Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
                      Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
                      I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
                      TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
                      ATTN TOM KAGAN
                      World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
                      Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
                      I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
                      Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I agree with the above, however this guy didn't win by spazzing. It looked very precise. And hard. He did the wing chun blocks in a fluid way, but he used them like strikes - definately not limp-wristed soft. He never used chain punches and was very verbal about how they were stupid the way chunners trained them. He really liked hitting things hard, so I doubt he got his delivery method from chun - he used a lot of hip torque. He participated in full contact multi-style events, but tended to win those using kicks, not wing chun. He did not use kicks so much in those other confrontations, prefering to get in close to the guy before doing anything.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Munacra View Post
                          FOOM FOOM ZOOM ZOOM SIR COULD YOU FOOOM ZOOM ZOOM FOOM PLEASE BACK FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM UPPPPPP!
                          He also liked Osoto Gari, and Osoto Guruma a lot. I don't recall seeing him use them in a actual confrontation, but he used them a lot when people got too close.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by 8bit View Post
                            I agree with the above, however this guy didn't win by spazzing. It looked very precise. And hard. He did the wing chun blocks in a fluid way, but he used them like strikes - definately not limp-wristed soft. He never used chain punches and was very verbal about how they were stupid the way chunners trained them. He really liked hitting things hard, so I doubt he got his delivery method from chun - he used a lot of hip torque. He participated in full contact multi-style events, but tended to win those using kicks, not wing chun. He did not use kicks so much in those other confrontations, prefering to get in close to the guy before doing anything.
                            So basically the un chun won?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Tom Kagan View Post
                              You failed.


                              Sheesh. When will everyone get it that it's the hands that do the talking?

                              Show:

                              1. The elites of the style competitive with the elites other styles under a decent ruleset required to showcase the result of training (SanDa)

                              2. A demonstrable increase in fighting skill for the average practitioner.

                              3. Less dorks being produced.


                              Until these are met, it deserves all the abuse - both called and uncalled for - it gets from the fighting community.

                              Tough luck, too bad. Deal with it, contribute to making the above criteria happen, or shut your whiny egotistical pie hole already.
                              This thread is for reconciling my eye-witness accounts with reality, not to prove or even to provide evidence for the effectiveness or worth of chun. Sorry you misinterpreted.

                              Comment

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