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  • kwan_dao
    replied
    Originally posted by KO'd N DOA View Post
    Kwan_dao,

    I have looked in the past for a history of German JJ and Judo between 1920s and 1945 could you give me a link to who is doing research, or web sources. Danke
    I just hope I am right if I suppose you can read german.

    For a quick start-up I would like to point you to http://www.kampfkunstforum.de/index....c=36055&st=120

    Originally a thread about Erich Rahn, one of the more "colorful" and highly debated protagonists of early JJ in Germany, it soon developed into a broader historical discussion. Some of the posters list an extensive wealth of sources, the study of which I can highly recommend. Especially the books of Erich Rahn, Alfred Rhode and Wolfram Werner. Their historical/biographical accounts are very interesting, even though everyting should be taken with a grain of salt. :icon_stud

    You will find out that there is kind of a "black hole" in the history of German Jiu Jitsu and Judo though, starting from 1938/39 up to 1949. First the practice of MA's outside of the Wehrmacht/SS/Gestapo etc. was forbidden by the Nazi's, then (after 1945) the Allies outruled them until 1949.

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  • DCS
    replied
    Originally posted by Cayvmann View Post
    Not trying to rile anyone up, but as far as I can see nobody has cited any real sources for any of their disputed facts.
    e-budo post written by J. Svinth 3 years ago.

    Some more background to that transitional era, which is not especially well documented in English.

    During the early 1880s, the Tokyo Metropolitan Police hosted a couple of tournaments meant to resolve the question of which was better, Kodokan judo club or a Yoshin Ryu jujutsu school headed by Hikosuke Totsuka, and over time, the Kodokan athletes firmly established their primacy. For a lively account, see Wayne Muromoto's article at http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue3/judo.htmlsaid Baelz, Kano, "and his comrades were at length successful in inducing the university authorities to summon the jiujitsu expert from Chiba and a great jiujitsu contest took place. This made it clear how much training is needed to learn the art, for of all the young men who had been working at it in Tokyo, not one, not even Kano, could cope with the police officers who had been trained by Totsuka in ChibaThis defeat, which is invariably glossed over in Kodokan histories, probably took place in 1882http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth1_1000.htm .)

    Although Kano trained and taught regularly, Sakujiro "Devil" Yokoyama was the Kodokan's head instructor during the early days. Yokoyama (ca. 1864-1914) was the one of the heroes of that police contest mentioned above, and E.J. Harrison described him as "perhaps my greatest teacher." (Letter to RW Smith, July 9, 1959, http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_harrison_0503.htm .) Yokoyama's 1915 text is reviewed at http://www.bestjudo.com/brjudosakujiroyokoyama.shtml , and a photo of training at the Kodokan ca. 1900 appears at http://home.att.net/~hofhine/Judo.html . Yokoyama's original style was apparently Tenshin Shinyo Ryu.
    __________________
    Joe
    http://ejmas.com
    (Bold mine)

    Now you can trust in J. Svinth as MA historian or not, but the sources are, if not cheap, at least widely available.

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  • Cayvmann
    replied
    Not trying to rile anyone up, but as far as I can see nobody has cited any real sources for any of their disputed facts. You can't just say that a person who has an opposing opinion is wrong and that he must provide sources. You should also provide your sources, if for nothing else, to show that you have some. Otherwise its just an appeal to authority. (Even though I'd be tempted to take MTripp on his word)

    Plus for those of us with no foreknowledge, these sources might be an interesting read......

    Leave a comment:


  • Fitz
    replied
    Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
    The claim that it was only one style of jujutsu vs Kano in the 1886 matches is simply not true. There are many sources to check, printed ones by people who have studied their history.
    Here's a quote attributed to Kano on the incident:

    In Kano's words: "Under the auspices of the Chief of Metropolitan Police, a grand tournament was arranged between both schools. This was a decisive battle. Defeat would have been fatal to the Kodokan. But in that tournament, to which each school sent 15 picked men, the Kodokan won all the bouts excepting two, which ended in a draw. That brilliant victory established once and for all the supremacy of Kodokan Judo over all jujitsu schools."
    it is taken from the National Institute of Health's Judo Club page, unfortunately without attribution. http://www.recgov.org/r&w/nihjudo/history.html

    The two schools mentioned by Kano are his own Kodokan Judo and Hikosuke Totsuka's Totsuka ha Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu. No other schools were indicated for this competition.

    A broader overview of the match can be read at http://web.archive.org/web/200709281...sue3/judo.html (used archives.org as the furyu site seems to be having loading issues)

    In most of the discussions of the match there are indication that there may have been preliminary rounds of some sort leading to the decision to pit these two schools against each other. The Kodokan itself was the site of a number of challenge matches during its early years so they certainly had contact and successful competition with a number of different schools. However when the Metropolitan Police Match is discussed in nearly all sources they are referring specifically to the 15 man to 15 man competition between the Kodokan and Totsuka-ha Yoshin-ryu.

    If you have materials about any previously undisclosed qualifying rounds/matches previous to the Kodokan/Yoshing-ryu competition I would love to see them, as I'm sure would many others. It's been a really overlooked part of what led to the final showdown.
    Last edited by Fitz; 2/27/2009 11:32am, .

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  • KO'd N DOA
    replied
    Kwan_dao,

    I have looked in the past for a history of German JJ and Judo between 1920s and 1945 could you give me a link to who is doing research, or web sources. Danke

    Leave a comment:


  • kwan_dao
    replied
    Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
    Someone claiming to teach a long dead jujutsu system is not as credible to me as the many people who have studied and written on this event.
    Huh? Sorry, but I do not understand to whom you are referring there. Who is claiming to teach what?

    I am not using the internet/google as my sole source. But not everyone has access to scientific publications and/or a large library. Thats why I tried to point people to internet searches. Some sources you can find on the web are not that bad. So from my point of view its still better to make up your own opinion using google-fu, then just to believe what 3rd hand information is spoon-fed to you.

    I would really like to learn more about where (what sources) your opinion comes from. If you happen to have the information at hand, would you mind sharing who the people you refer to (those whose studies about the tournament of 1886 you read) are? If I have some names to start from, I might get a chance to read the documents you are referring to myself. New insights are allways welcome.

    Leave a comment:


  • ignatzami
    replied
    Originally posted by kwan_dao View Post
    So what?

    To use a more prominent example, Albert Einstein was proven to be wrong on several occasions. He accepted it and thanked the ones correcting him.....
    My point for making the statement, idiot, was if your going to question an authority your facts had better be 100% air tight. I bet when Einstein was corrected those that disproved his theories brought him repeatable, rock solid evidence.

    Your post, the one I originally commented on, was so bad I disproved several of your points by simple Googling in the time it took Mr. Tripp to write out his post.

    I have no problem with questioning authority but make sure you do it properly, and make sure your right, 100% right, before opening your mouth. Any less and you look like an idiot. Idiot.

    You cited no sources, you made no attempt to construct a logical, sound argument refuting his points, you basically ran your mouth. Now, you look like an Idiot.

    Idiot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mtripp
    replied
    Originally posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Even if you do not possess access to scientific/university ressources, it is still easy to find out what is wrong with the above stated "fact" by using freaking google.

    There is a lot of debate on the 1886 contest. And yes, the sources available leave a lot of room for debate. One could speculate for hours about how many fights actually took place, because it seems every "witness" came up with a different number.

    But there is this one thing they all have in common. They report the event to have been a match between the Schools of Jigoro Kano and Hikosuke Totsuka.

    My understanding is, that it would be hilarious to claim that Totsuka, leader of the Ryoi shinto-Ryu, represented "all other jujutsu styles".

    This would of course mean, that Mr. Tripp is/was wrong on a very basic fact. Geez, I just hope this will not make the universe implode.
    Perhaps it would, if I was wrong.

    The claim that it was only one style of jujutsu vs Kano in the 1886 matches is simply not true. There are many sources to check, printed ones by people who have studied their history.

    Yes, one can google and find all sorts of things. Doesn't mean its correct.

    Kano was very clear in word and intent that the 1886 match was about his system of training and study vs all the other jujutsu styles. That is exactly what happened.

    Someone claiming to teach a long dead jujutsu system is not as credible to me as the many people who have studied and written on this event.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mugsy
    replied
    "100??? WTF! 1000 noobie!"
    Yeah,I mistyped 1000000000000.
    You get my point however. knowing that Tokyo police needed a new unarmed combat system in the late 1800's never won a fight.
    Yeah, i read on the toilet so I picked up a bit of the history, but I like to spend my time reading about the Historical significance of O Kano Sensei by studying what he said about important things like Kuzushi and Ukemi.

    Leave a comment:


  • kwan_dao
    replied
    Originally posted by Mtripp View Post

    The very fact that the 1886 police contest was to pit Kano's Judo against all other "jujutsu" styles shows that Kano held himself and his program apart from the jujutsu people of the day.
    Even if you do not possess access to scientific/university ressources, it is still easy to find out what is wrong with the above stated "fact" by using freaking google.

    There is a lot of debate on the 1886 contest. And yes, the sources available leave a lot of room for debate. One could speculate for hours about how many fights actually took place, because it seems every "witness" came up with a different number.

    But there is this one thing they all have in common. They report the event to have been a match between the Schools of Jigoro Kano and Hikosuke Totsuka.

    My understanding is, that it would be hilarious to claim that Totsuka, leader of the Ryoi shinto-Ryu, represented "all other jujutsu styles".

    This would of course mean, that Mr. Tripp is/was wrong on a very basic fact. Geez, I just hope this will not make the universe implode.

    Leave a comment:


  • kwan_dao
    replied
    Originally posted by ignatzami View Post
    You are correcting MARK FUCKING TRIPP on Judo history......

    Idiot
    So what?

    To use a more prominent example, Albert Einstein was proven to be wrong on several occasions. He accepted it and thanked the ones correcting him.

    In science and history anything can and should be contested. All the time. Nothing is holy and there are no gods of allwaysright.

    Why should there be uncontested holy positions or persons with built in omincognescence in a discussion on a intarwebs-forum?

    I bet there was once an apeman who had clear evidence that the so-called "ground" was a work of evil and no one should ever set foot on it. Too bad he had no forums. Sometimes I think I might actually like to still live on trees.

    BTW: An Idiot in its classical greek meaning would simply be someone with a lack of education. A lack of education can easily be cured. Stupidity on the other hand is incurable. Now who is to pity more, me or you?

    Leave a comment:


  • 3moose1
    replied
    Originally posted by ignatzami View Post
    You are correcting MARK FUCKING TRIPP on Judo history......

    Idiot

    This is what makes me LOL, when people try to correct him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mtripp
    replied
    100??? WTF! 1000 noobie!

    Leave a comment:


  • Mugsy
    replied
    In my experience, knowing who Doctor Kano's students fought and when doesn't replace another 100 Uchikomi.
    That doesn't mean it's not worth knowing however.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mtripp
    replied
    1. I have been wrong before I will be so again. However, I usually am not. Mainly because unless I am very sure, I keep my mouth shut. Or at least I say "my understanding is." I think most people lack that.

    2. The problem is there are many groups claiming to teach the "real secrets" of various systems. People over here have claimed very high judo ranks, but claim they were given to them by jujitsu groups else where. It doesn't fit.

    3. There is zero information of any other major loss for the Kodokan save Fushen-ryu. For someone to claim there is another one, which makes them on a par with or greater than, I would have to see a whole lot of proof.

    4. As long as you are actually applying your techinques in full power real time matches, I have no problem. As I have said, its all wrestling, its about what are we wearing and what are the rules.

    5. When we break off into "opposing camps" we don't learn much. I embrace the Russian way because you will see top level Judo, Sambo, Wrestlers, MMA, etc, all training together. Everyone is pushed forward that way.

    However, my BS detector goes off when I hear about someone claiming to have the "ultimate" anything, in terms of grappling.

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