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    #31
    good to see bjj receiving good publicity in the papers, despite the factual disorientation with roots of 'jiu jitsu' dating back to monks.

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      #32
      Because if there is ONE thing BJJ is lacking, its publicity!

      PROOF that I'm not a completely useless poster:
      http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...0&postcount=58


      Originally posted by Cy Q. Faunce
      3moose1 is correct. Sig THAT, you fucker.

      Originally posted by sochin101
      I went out with a delightful young woman who was on a regimen of pills that made her taste of burned onions.
      That is not conducive to passionate cunnilingus, my friend, let me assure you.
      Originally posted by HappyOldGuy
      I agree with moosey

      Comment


        #33
        and striking.

        PROOF that I'm not a completely useless poster:
        http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...0&postcount=58


        Originally posted by Cy Q. Faunce
        3moose1 is correct. Sig THAT, you fucker.

        Originally posted by sochin101
        I went out with a delightful young woman who was on a regimen of pills that made her taste of burned onions.
        That is not conducive to passionate cunnilingus, my friend, let me assure you.
        Originally posted by HappyOldGuy
        I agree with moosey

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
          Interesting, and I see a lot of people are saying this now. However, it just does not set with history.

          The very fact that the 1886 police contest was to pit Kano's Judo against all other "jujutsu" styles shows that Kano held himself and his program apart from the jujutsu people of the day.

          The only Kodokan people who used the term "jujutsu" we people such as Kimura and Madea who were prize fighting, something Kano forbade. In fact Kimura was kicked out of the Kodokan for prize fighting, and was not let back in until the late 1980's or early 1990's.

          We have Madea's letters home, and to and from the Kodokan, he does not refer to himself that way. Moreover, the Gracies on their tapes claim Kimura to be a "world Jiujitsu champion." Problem is, no such world jiujitsu event ever took place.

          Yes, in the 1930's and 1940's the term jujutsu with all its spellings were used, but not correctly.

          Mr. Moto himself says at the end of one of his films that the term is Judo, not Jujitsu.

          Hope that helps.
          I am sorry to tell you that you got some of your facts wrong, and that your position also seems to be in contrast to the history of Judo/Jiu Jitsu/JuJutsu in Germany.

          1. The 1886 police tournament was ordered to be held because the tensions between the Kodokan and Ryoi shinto-Ryu, another school of Jiu Jitsu led by Totsuka Hikosuke
          Last edited by kwan_dao; 2/26/2009 3:26am, .

          Comment


            #35
            <<<1. The 1886 police tournament was ordered to be held because the tensions between the Kodokan and Ryoi shinto-Ryu, another school of Jiu Jitsu led by Totsuka Hikosuke, one of the strongest critics of Kano, had reached a level where they where causing what the japanese police considered "social unrest".>>>

            Simply not true. The Tokyo Police were looking for a system to train their officers in. The event was held to make that decision.

            <<<Hikosuke had published several articles about Kano, calling him a little weak bookworm who was unable to fight. This of course led to confrontations between students of Kano and Hikosuke. The tournament was ordered to end the debate.>>>

            True, but not true. Dojo bashing was a time honored tradition in Japan. Students from one club could go to another club, and challenge the top student. If they defeated him they could ask to fight the headmaster. If they defeated him they could take the sign down. While Kano could not stop this, Kodokan members were forbidden to go to another school or to fight outside of the Kodokan in such events. This led to many people being kicked out of the Kodokan (Kimura being the most well known example). Again, the event was about which system the Police would study, not one school vs another. It could be argued that it was really all of Judo vs all of Jujutsu, but it was not one man vs another.

            <<<In 1888 the Kodokan held a match against Fusen Ryu. This was the first (and only?) big loss in the history of Judo. Fusen Ryu devastated the Kodokan fighters by forcing them into groundfights. This led to the incorporation of Newaza into Judo.>>>

            Again, true, sort of. This story always assumes that there was no Newaza in Judo at the time. Their was, but not as much and the focus was not there. Kano felt that it was of limited value in a "real fight." Others at the Kodokan disagreed with him. After the defeat it went to a 60/40 position at the Kodokan.

            <<<To my knowledge, both matches where considered (and publicly received) as fights between Jiu Jitsu schools.>>>

            Simply not true. Kano was looking to establish himself and his system as something different and superior to jujutsu. Were this not the case, the event would have had matches against other jujutsu styles. What it had was Kano's Judo vs every jujutsu style that came.

            <<<Jiu Jitsu came to germany as early as 1906. The funny thing is, that what was clearly taught as "Jiu Jitsu" back then, was in fact Judo. Jigoro Kano even visited Germany in person and taught there. Yet all the societies and clubs founded at that time called themselves "Jiu Jitsu Verein". If Kano did not call his art Jiu Jitsu, then why would germans taught by him personally, or his students, use this term?>>>

            Good question. Why did the US and England? First, because the music hall and Vaudville performers called it that, and those who were "prize fighting" called it that. However, 10 years after the 1886 matches, no one in Japan was calling it that, and no where in Kano's own writings does he call it that.

            <<<In 1922 they held the first all german Jiu Jitsu mastership in Berlin. Practically all competitors where Judo fighters.>>>

            The problem is that there are jujitsu groups in Europe who have no relationship to Judo at all. Some of them have claimed to give out Judo rank in the past. They are not the same thing.

            <<<It seems that Kano developed the wish to distinguish his organization from other Jiu Jitsu styles just a few years before his death in 1938. He obviously had no problem with the name "Jiu Jitsu" as a label for Judo in the early years and during his first visits to germany. Same goes for his students who taught in germany prior to 1933.>>>

            Again, simply not true. We have Kano's own writings which refute this.

            <<<In my opinion all this seems to indicate that Judo is in fact part of the (very broad and variable) Jiu Jitsu family. The very founder of the system had no problem with his art beeing considered a Jiu Jitsu school for more then 40 years. Why he changed his views when he grew old is probably more a question for psycologists then for historians.>>>

            Again, this is simply not in keeping with Kano's own writings and the writings of his students.
            "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC

            Comment


              #36
              A pair of things

              Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
              <<<1. The 1886 police tournament was ordered to be held because the tensions between the Kodokan and Ryoi shinto-Ryu, another school of Jiu Jitsu led by Totsuka Hikosuke, one of the strongest critics of Kano, had reached a level where they where causing what the japanese police considered "social unrest".>>>

              Simply not true. The Tokyo Police were looking for a system to train their officers in. The event was held to make that decision.
              It seems Totsuka Hikosuke students defeated Kano and his students in a tournament held in 1883.


              <<<Hikosuke had published several articles about Kano, calling him a little weak bookworm who was unable to fight. This of course led to confrontations between students of Kano and Hikosuke. The tournament was ordered to end the debate.>>>

              True, but not true. Dojo bashing was a time honored tradition in Japan. Students from one club could go to another club, and challenge the top student. If they defeated him they could ask to fight the headmaster. If they defeated him they could take the sign down....
              This honured tradition in Edo period was frowned upon by Meiji era authorities as barbaric, thuggish and opposed to a modernised Japan. This way tournaments organized with authorities approval took the place of old dojo yaburi/arashi.


              <<<Jiu Jitsu came to germany as early as 1906. The funny thing is, that what was clearly taught as "Jiu Jitsu" back then, was in fact Judo. Jigoro Kano even visited Germany in person and taught there. Yet all the societies and clubs founded at that time called themselves "Jiu Jitsu Verein". If Kano did not call his art Jiu Jitsu, then why would germans taught by him personally, or his students, use this term?>>>

              Good question. Why did the US and England? First, because the music hall and Vaudville performers called it that, and those who were "prize fighting" called it that. However, 10 years after the 1886 matches, no one in Japan was calling it that, and no where in Kano's own writings does he call it that.

              Comment


                #37
                So yes, I agree with everyone else here that the BJJ article was not 100% accurate.
                Combatives training log.

                Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

                Drum thread

                Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

                "Disliking someone is not evidence of wrongdoing or malfeasance or even bias." --Dung Beatles

                Comment


                  #38
                  So, other than Fusen Ryu, there is another loss that was covered up and unspoken of?

                  Many years ago, Juko-lie (Juko-kai) and its Jo-kay, took out a full page ad in Black Belt to push their "Traditional Judo" program. If we took the claims in the ads as facts, a great deal of Judo history would have to be changed.

                  As I said, there are several groups, under the banner of "orginial" or "traditional" systems claiming linage to Judo, or being superior to Judo. When you see a book titled "Japans Ultimate Martial Art, Jujutsu before 1882" it kinda tells you the bias, or at least the opinion of the author.

                  There have been Aiki-Jujutsu groups for years who claimed they are the ultimate martial art because Saigo (sp?) was actually an Aiki-Jujutsu guy who beat everyone for Kano.

                  Not quite correct, but it keeps lots of people doing aiki-jujutsu and avoiding real randori/shai to develop real workd skills.
                  "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by kwan_dao View Post
                    I am sorry to tell you that you got some of your facts wrong, and that your position also seems to be in contrast to the history of Judo/Jiu Jitsu/JuJutsu in Germany.

                    1. The 1886 police tournament was ordered to be held because the tensions between the Kodokan and Ryoi shinto-Ryu, another school of Jiu Jitsu led by Totsuka Hikosuke
                    You are correcting MARK FUCKING TRIPP on Judo history......

                    Idiot
                    Last edited by ignatzami; 2/26/2009 10:24am, .
                    I do not aspire to be great, or even good, I hope to suck a little less then last class.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                      As I said, there are several groups, under the banner of "orginial" or "traditional" systems claiming linage to Judo, or being superior to Judo. When you see a book titled "Japans Ultimate Martial Art, Jujutsu before 1882" it kinda tells you the bias, or at least the opinion of the author.
                      A) Rickson's history is epic level stupid. I wish there were some form of history-dojo-storming that we could perform to correct him.

                      B) Jujutsu Before 1882's author, Darrell Max Craig, has a daughter that was, I believe, Texas state judo champion. While I think he's got some weird beliefs re: jujutsu (particularly book illustrations and pedagogy), he doesn't hate judo.
                      What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by ignatzami View Post
                        You are correcting MARK FUCKING TRIPP on Judo history......

                        Idiot
                        My sensei said....
                        What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                          So, other than Fusen Ryu, there is another loss that was covered up and unspoken of?

                          Comment


                            #43
                            You guys are missing the big issue with that article. clearly those aren't BJJ guys in the picture, since the Gis are white and aren't eleven layers deep with boy scout patches and advertisements for dick embiggenators.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by ignatzami View Post
                              You are correcting MARK FUCKING TRIPP on Judo history......

                              Idiot
                              Yea, the last thing you would ever want to do is question anyone in a position of authority. Even if there is no way on the fucking earth he could be wrong it is still worth debating if only to learn more about the myths perpetrated among the arts.

                              How many instances of bullshido are covered up by "Don't question him, he's been doing it for 50 years and trained with X". I teach my students to question everything and do their own research and challenge me on my facts. I have no fear of being wrong and I suspect neither does Mr. Tripp. When he is right he educates all of us. If he happens to be wrong then the debate will educate all of us and Mr. Tripp. It's a win win situation.

                              Personally, I wish more facts about judo would become common knowedge to most judoka. There is so much bullshido spread in judo schools today that most judoka know very little about the orgin of their art or it's history. I've learned from 3 instructors in my short time in judo and I've learned at least 4 different versions of history. Three versions from my instrcutor, and one from reading books.

                              Finally, I would like to state that I have no opinion on the matter discussed as I am not informed enough on the detailed history of judo to comment.

                              Oh and moose, if you want to find some judoka that suck on the ground, I can give you a list :-p
                              "a martial art that has no rules is nothing but violence" - Kenji Tomiki

                              Comment


                                #45
                                1. I have been wrong before I will be so again. However, I usually am not. Mainly because unless I am very sure, I keep my mouth shut. Or at least I say "my understanding is." I think most people lack that.

                                2. The problem is there are many groups claiming to teach the "real secrets" of various systems. People over here have claimed very high judo ranks, but claim they were given to them by jujitsu groups else where. It doesn't fit.

                                3. There is zero information of any other major loss for the Kodokan save Fushen-ryu. For someone to claim there is another one, which makes them on a par with or greater than, I would have to see a whole lot of proof.

                                4. As long as you are actually applying your techinques in full power real time matches, I have no problem. As I have said, its all wrestling, its about what are we wearing and what are the rules.

                                5. When we break off into "opposing camps" we don't learn much. I embrace the Russian way because you will see top level Judo, Sambo, Wrestlers, MMA, etc, all training together. Everyone is pushed forward that way.

                                However, my BS detector goes off when I hear about someone claiming to have the "ultimate" anything, in terms of grappling.
                                "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC

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