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Russian Wing Chun Vs Russian Military hand to hand (spas) A serious discussion

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    Russian Wing Chun Vs Russian Military hand to hand (spas) A serious discussion

    So do to the amount of Wing Chun threads I did a youtube search on _ing_un vs trying to find something that is a good example of sparring between systems in which the combatants are evenly match and hard hitting.

    I found these 4 vids from a mini throwdown in Russia put on by the Russian Wing Chun school vs another school called SPAS

    Anyways they are very interesting. I will put my comments in the next post.

    Please can we avoid trolling from both Chun trolls and anti chun trolls.

    Also I put this in the striking forum, there is some grappling in the vids but I think we can agree on both parts it's fairly horrible.

    YouTube - Russian Wing Chun Academy vs S.P.A.S. 1 (Military hand-to-hand combat)

    YouTube - Russian Wing Chun Academy vs S.P.A.S. 2 (Military hand-to-hand combat)

    YouTube - Russian Wing Chun Academy vs S.P.A.S. 3 (Military hand-to-hand combat)

    YouTube - Russian Wing Chun Academy vs S.P.A.S. 4 (Military hand-to-hand combat)

    #2
    Critique

    We see a variety of Wing chun stance, from the first vid which is almost western boxing to the last one which is very orthodox wing chun stance.

    The more orthodox the stance is the more the chunners get hit with over hand rights.

    On the other hand all the wing Chun fighters were able to get in and clinch.

    So chain punch to clinch seems to work.

    Unfortunatly for the Wing Chun guys they have no idea how to throw knees (the first guy isn't that bad actually) as they are trying to jump up rather than control the head and pull the guy into their knees and get their hips into the knee strikes.

    I don't know if this is a fair critisim of Wing Chun as I am not sure knees is a big part of their strategy.

    again for the speed vs power ratio I think these vids show that the WC stance and chain punch while good for quickly getting in and clinching doesn't have a lot of power behind it.

    If their knees and inside dirty boxing were better they would be more effective, but they are trying to hard to chi sau from that range.

    In conclusion I think their might be some value to some Wing Chun technique and strategy in bridging the gap but not in following up and finishing.

    Comment


      #3
      I also see that the chain punch leads to clinching, but the wing chun guy does not always end up with inside control and doesn't know what to do once there. I see them throwing 'marching band knees' (no hips involved) and some overhand punches around the clinch, but no effective defense when in the clinch (control opponents hips, circle, or pummel) and no effective offense when in control (good knees, movement to keep opponent off balance, controlling posture, short/dirty boxing, etc).

      I also notice that when the SPAS guys are being chain punched in the face, they still counter and move. Stepping offline leads into an easy clinch in some cases here.
      Last edited by Uncle Skippy; 2/17/2009 2:42pm, . Reason: spelling. DURRRR

      Comment


        #4
        They aren't really chain punching in the classic arms only sense, they're just throwing a lot of straights. If you discard WC you aren't winning a victory for wing chun anymore. Every distinctive element of "wing chun" gets eroded in the first few seconds and they find themselves aping orthodox fighting, badly, to survive. Even the two guys that hold the wing chun stance through their fights look very orthodox. Where's the clearly dominant science and unique triangular structure?

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Goju - Joe View Post
          Critique

          We see a variety of Wing chun stance, from the first vid which is almost western boxing to the last one which is very orthodox wing chun stance.

          The more orthodox the stance is the more the chunners get hit with over hand rights.

          On the other hand all the wing Chun fighters were able to get in and clinch.

          So chain punch to clinch seems to work.

          Unfortunatly for the Wing Chun guys they have no idea how to throw knees (the first guy isn't that bad actually) as they are trying to jump up rather than control the head and pull the guy into their knees and get their hips into the knee strikes.

          I don't know if this is a fair critisim of Wing Chun as I am not sure knees is a big part of their strategy.

          again for the speed vs power ratio I think these vids show that the WC stance and chain punch while good for quickly getting in and clinching doesn't have a lot of power behind it.

          If their knees and inside dirty boxing were better they would be more effective, but they are trying to hard to chi sau from that range.

          In conclusion I think their might be some value to some Wing Chun technique and strategy in bridging the gap but not in following up and finishing.
          I think the most resembling of wing chun would be video3 however from clench I find chi gerk to be what comes out of me alot. I also think that they went to clench too early. you saw almsot no trapping range attacks outside of chainpunching and there were no attempts to deflect or use traditional wing chun block/punch simultaneously. This was probably much better than I've seen yet though so thank youf or posting goju joe. If I had to guess I'd say my and kintanon's session will probably be along the lines of video3.

          Knees are used quite often in wing chun and chi gerk has several uses for them. in the scene with multiple knees where the other guy slams them down repeatedly this was a perfect cahcne to flow around teh resistance and let the push drive the stomp kick into the kneecap. It' can be agrued with adrenaline pumping and the ehat of the moment they forgot about it but after 4 succecutive knees I was disapointed that they didnt fold on any of them.

          Thank you for posting the video though this was close to what I had requested. thought there is no simultaneous attack and defense and no flowing around resistance, relentless rpessure is evident here so 1/3 principles are shown. thank you for the post I weill ponder on what you've said and what the video shows.

          Comment


            #6
            Very nice find, Goju.

            You're absolutely right about the knee kicks being incorrectly executed - as well as lack of power (although the SPAS people seem to hit a bit harder, at first glance).

            These videos show the first step needed in most -ing -un schools.

            Unlike the motorcycle helmet-beating guy of the other thread, these folks might get somewhere in time.

            Originally posted by wingchunx2z View Post
            ...you saw almsot no trapping range attacks outside of chainpunching and there were no attempts to deflect or use traditional wing chun block/punch simultaneously...
            Please, make a count of how many times you will be able to execute these in any of your sparrings with non-chun, non-compliant opponents. For your own good.
            Last edited by Tonuzaba; 2/17/2009 2:57pm, .

            CLICK & WATCH
            :
            I got BULLSHIDO ON TV!!!

            "Bruce Lee sucks because I slammed my nuts with nunchucks trying to do that stupid shit back in the day. I still managed to have two kids. I forgive you Bruce.
            " - by Vorpal

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by wingchunx2z View Post
              I think the most resembling of wing chun would be video3 however from clench I find chi gerk to be what comes out of me alot. I also think that they went to clench too early. you saw almsot no trapping range attacks outside of chainpunching and there were no attempts to deflect or use traditional wing chun block/punch simultaneously. This was probably much better than I've seen yet though so thank youf or posting goju joe. If I had to guess I'd say my and kintanon's session will probably be along the lines of video3.

              Knees are used quite often in wing chun and chi gerk has several uses for them. in the scene with multiple knees where the other guy slams them down repeatedly this was a perfect cahcne to flow around teh resistance and let the push drive the stomp kick into the kneecap. It' can be agrued with adrenaline pumping and the ehat of the moment they forgot about it but after 4 succecutive knees I was disapointed that they didnt fold on any of them.

              Thank you for posting the video though this was close to what I had requested. thought there is no simultaneous attack and defense and no flowing around resistance, relentless rpessure is evident here so 1/3 principles are shown. thank you for the post I weill ponder on what you've said and what the video shows.
              I think the WC go to the clinch because they're getting punched in the head too much, seriously I don't mean that to sound jerky but they take some big shots, and its like "ohh ohh got to clinch"

              the other problem is the classical WC stance vs the more western boxer stance is the SPAS guys are able to get in and hit and otu of the way, there's some low kicks from the WC guys but they get grabbed.

              Again I think the stance is a real problem, structure vs mobility.

              to me mobility is more important.

              Comment


                #8
                There's no trapping because there's never trapping. Trapping is almost impossible to actually do. Don't get too proud of these videos, either - there's nothing GREAT in them, just some WCers who actually look sort of like fighters (probably because they're russians and you can tell a russian windmill punches and spitting is a martial art and he'll practice hard enough to make it work)

                Comment


                  #9
                  Wingchunx2z, please take more time to check your spelling so that your posts are easier to read. Also "clinch" is what fighters do when they close the gap. "Clench" makes me think of http://www.childbirth.org/articles/kegel.html
                  Mushi mo atsui hodo
                  Mushiatsui

                  Originally Posted by chuey
                  ...Well fuck if that isn't the most anti-Mr. Miyagi shit I have heard in ages.

                  Two wrongs don't make a right, but
                  Three rights make a left.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by wingchunx2z View Post
                    If I had to guess I'd say my and kintanon's session will probably be along the lines of video3.

                    If you happen to get control of the clinch to the point where you can throw knees at all I'll be surprised, but if you throw them like that then you're going to get dumped on your head....

                    And the "Trapping range" is a myth. There are 3 ranges of fighting. Standup, Clinch, Ground. You can subdivide Standup into kicking range and punching range if you want to. But if you get closer than punching range then it's clinch time.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I can has clinch?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The chain punches lacked danger. If I am grappling a striker every punch thrown is an advantage to me if there is no danger for me in getting hit. The reaction to landed punches was minor to none. I have seen missed punches get a stronger response in other fights.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Ignore me. I oughta pay more attention to which forum I'm in
                          Last edited by Lindz; 2/17/2009 9:37pm, .

                          Comment


                            #14
                            The only time I can see trapping being useful is during "mid- clinch" or "pre-clinch" in muay thai where both fighters fight for inside positions of the biceps before or during a half dominate position in the neck. However this is also the most scary portion of the clinch, where you are a bit closer than punching range, into knee and elbow range.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              This thread helps out a lot, ten thanks for posting! Hopefully there will be more sincere critiques!

                              Comment

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