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Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT)

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    #61
    I am an MP in the British Army and sadly, they teach this stuff too, as part of a 5 day package on how to deal with suspects using cuffs, standing arm bars etc.

    Most of what was detailed in the OP, we learnt.

    We also learnt to punch to the chest/abdomen but our fists must the open until the last minute and it must be a vertical fist! Apparently, this looks good on CCTV in court.

    Ground defence was an absolute joke. The instructor touched on bridging and rolling to get out of the mount. Just Bridge, roll, and hit the suspect in the ribs whilst roliing. That is the extent of defending yourself when you are on the bottom.

    The good thing about the course is all the gucci kit the instructors had. We had scenario training at the end of the course where the instructors would put on redman suits and you get to go full force on the instructors. I think almost all the trainees realized very quickly how inadequate their training was because quite simply... the techniques were incredibly difficult to apply on someone who is resisting.

    I think the point about instructors being over-confident in their techniques is very apt. There seems to be a lack of reality about the efficacy of the techniques taught... yet a single leg takedown is apparently very dangerous to do because the suspect could elbow me in the back or knee me in the face.

    It was quite a fustrating week to say the least.
    Last edited by ArTerraWalker; 2/19/2009 6:59pm, .

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      #62
      All my instructors are cops or ex cops, they say SAMBO works fine for them.

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        #63
        Had to take "Defensive Tactics" at training academy, plus a refresher course at the beginning of the year...Umm. They showed the shrimp and bridge and roll for ground survival, but how many people are going to master that in two hours?

        The worst part was one trainee (not me) asking a question about "submission holds". The answer was "We don't use stuff like a kimura to make inmates (sarcastic intonation) submit!" and from then on whenever the teacher showed a wristlock or whatever he'd say "Now this is something that will work...not some bull(expletive) like a kimura."

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          #64
          I train with two DETROIT police officers. Tough mother fuckers, they say their jits works really well.

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            #65
            This PPCT is not trying to teach people how to fight. It isn't even really teaching you how to restrain someone. All it is teaching is a set number of techniques that you are legally allowed to use when you get in a situation. Those are the techniques that you need to use on your report, to describe how you restrained someone. (Read between the lines).

            There is not a single person who goes through that training, that actually thinks it will work. Even the instructors. However, there are a lot of law enforcement agencies that are adopting better systems. It will take time, but it is getting there.

            As for the LEOs who need to use a system until then, SAMBO!!

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              #66
              I see what you mean.

              Real life: dude swings, you slip the punch, clinch, slam, mount, choke lightly until they stop resisting

              Report: man swung, and i restrained him with a standing armbar. He hit his head while resisting my attempts to put him peacefully in the car, and ended up headbutting the door frame?

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                #67
                Originally posted by 3moose1 View Post
                I see what you mean.

                Real life: dude swings, you slip the punch, clinch, slam, mount, choke lightly until they stop resisting

                Report: man swung, and i restrained him with a standing armbar. He hit his head while resisting my attempts to put him peacefully in the car, and ended up headbutting the door frame?

                Congratulations, you just graduated! It takes some people years to figure that out. But you didn't hear it from me.

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                  #68
                  haha, my Dad was a cop, :P

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                    #69
                    Yeah, it runs in the blood!

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                      #70
                      The holds and "come alongs" you described were all part of the DT training I rec'd. They were, however, referred to as "control tactics" to show they were meant for controlling offenders, not fighting them. We also had level 2 DT's which consisted of basic striking, made up mostly of palm strikes, elbows and knees. Recently (last 2 years or so) they have also added "ground defense" which consisted of some basic escapes from mount or how to stand up from guard. They capped it all off with a dose of aliveness via a redman suit.

                      All in all, most of the stuff we were taught seemed useful for what it was intended. And the program was pretty good. The main problem was that, except for the instructors or people that had previous MA experience, a once or twice a year requal simply isn't enough for most people to be effective at it.

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                        #71
                        Originally posted by diesel_tke View Post
                        Yeah, it runs in the blood!
                        So does aids...

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                          #72
                          Originally posted by JudOWNED View Post
                          The holds and "come alongs" you described were all part of the DT training I rec'd. They were, however, referred to as "control tactics" to show they were meant for controlling offenders, not fighting them. We also had level 2 DT's which consisted of basic striking, made up mostly of palm strikes, elbows and knees. Recently (last 2 years or so) they have also added "ground defense" which consisted of some basic escapes from mount or how to stand up from guard. They capped it all off with a dose of aliveness via a redman suit.

                          All in all, most of the stuff we were taught seemed useful for what it was intended. And the program was pretty good. The main problem was that, except for the instructors or people that had previous MA experience, a once or twice a year requal simply isn't enough for most people to be effective at it.
                          It seems the UK police took the program wholesale from the US. I personally thought the problem was there was too much martial theorizing around. Even with the redman suit, I remember being told I was out because I could have been hit very hard on the head by a baton during a clinch (my partner was being sat on by another, so I couldn't run away even though this guy had picked up a baton). The question that came up in m mind then was, "if he could, why didn't he?" I was wearing padded head protection, the baton was nothing more than a padded foam stick. There was nothing to stop him from swinging as hard as he could.

                          I concur with previous comments about this training being a cover your arrse package disguised as Personal Safety Instruction.

                          On the point of instructors mocking submissions, someone demonstrated a defence against a person who has rear mount and hooks in, and was cranking a RNC. Apparently, there are pressure points you can press on a persons feet to make the attacker release...

                          I switched off soon after that demonstration and simply went though the motions. It is hard to maintain a receptive mind whilst being confronted with such a ferocious onslaught on martial theorizing.

                          Ho-hum.

                          (why did I not make my opinions known? Its the army. You do as you're told)

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                            #73
                            Originally posted by Goju - Joe View Post
                            One of the other issues of any LEO training is 2 days of anything BJJ, PPCT or what ever won't do much good.

                            People who look for quick fixes and easy answers are going to be disappointed.

                            This is so true!


                            Having gone through dozens of PPCT classes and also while in the police academy it is not a great course but some thing is better than nothing for a relatively untrained LEO or corrections officer. I went through with an extensive back ground and found it pretty tame.
                            Still having said that I did use a roundhouse kick to the common peroneal once during a work related encounter and the person did drop and we hand cuffed him. So there are a few things of merit in it.

                            However, I think all LEO's, correction officers, etc. should be having regular and ongoing training. Not the once a year, four hour minimum that is usually found out there. Those actually are the lucky ones because many hardly if ever get any training after the academy.

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                              #74
                              It seems that institutions (police, psych. hospitals, etc.) are often mostly interested in being able to tick the box marked "self defense training" and in covering themselves liability-wise.

                              IMO the defense and restraint course developed by Bill Paul that I referred to earlier in this thread succeeded, not only because it was a damn good course, but because Paul himself was a senior member in his regional health-care services hierarchy. He had the authority to mandate regular and effective training sessions for all staff.

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                                #75
                                I took the course years ago. It's not bad for what it is.

                                All the same stuff you learned. Handcuffing, baton, pressure points, some wrist locks, and some strikes.

                                It's a really basic kind of program. It's more designed for those with zero martial arts training, as opposed to those with 20 years experience.

                                It's techniques have their applications, but they are limited. They are really designed for situations like yours where you are in custody of somebody and need to control them without just knocking them the fuck out, which is easier.

                                I wouldn't say anything in it is bullshit, just really basic. The baton strikes are all good, but nothing compared to a few months of Arnis. The striking isn't as good as a few months of MT. The wrist locks (zomg!!!) aren't as good as a few months of aikido/JJJ. The wrist locks work in the right application, say when you have to move a resisting opponent from one location to another. They are not really used for self-defense. The pressure points are a mixed bag. Again, they have a purpose. They are great if some asshole doesn't want to get out of a chair, but they are not meant to be used when someone is swinging at you. They make great party tricks though.

                                As for the instructor being a douche about submissions and stuff, that depends who is teaching it. Someone with a more mma outlook, like who taught me, isn't going to be such an idiot.

                                But some kung-fu guy who took the instructors course is going to inject hisown brand of stupidity into the mix.

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