Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #46
    Originally posted by 100xobm
    Conversely though;
    It Fucking Hurts.
    isn't that the point?

    Comment


      #47
      Depends what you're going for I guess. I assumed LEO work was about restraining offendis, not cracked ribs or a concussion, which I assume, in your country, means getting sued.

      Comment


        #48
        isn't that the point?
        The legal and ethical restrictions differ depending on the job. Psych. workers, teachers etc. have an even greater "duty of care" responsibility than LEOs, which is fair enough - they're often dealing with people who literally can't control themselves. In general, though, inflicting pain or potentially injuring someone is something you want to avoid *if possible* in a professional situation; it's a different ballgame from defending yourself in a street fight.

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by DdlR
          The legal and ethical restrictions differ depending on the job. Psych. workers, teachers etc. have an even greater "duty of care" responsibility than LEOs, which is fair enough - they're often dealing with people who literally can't control themselves. In general, though, inflicting pain or potentially injuring someone is something you want to avoid *if possible* in a professional situation; it's a different ballgame from defending yourself in a street fight.
          i'm sorry, i should have put the winking emotocon ;) next to my previous post.
          and i do understand that whole duty of care crap that is shoved down people's throats. when i was a social worker we had 2 techniques we could use. one was the basket hold (didn't work on anybody but kids) and for adults, pepper spray.

          the one time i failed to use the approved control tactics was when a 16 year old kid, who was stacked for days muscle wise, was in the act of beating up his 7 year old roommate for writing love notes to his (older kid's) girlfriend. i stepped into that and did a hip throw into a mounted wrist lock until the police were called. i was summarily disciplined, he was arrested, the 7 year old went to the hospital, and all the female staff at the shelter kept saying, "thank heavens mr. shmuley knows karate".

          i shudder to think what would have happened if i hadn't been there that day and the "approved control hold" was attempted by one of the other staff members.

          so, from personal experience alone, i have a very very sour taste in my mouth with this type of stuff.

          Comment


            #50
            Ah - yes, the winky emoticon would have come in handy.

            I don't like basket holds, not because they don't work on anyone but kids (read "much smaller people") but because it's too easy for something to go badly wrong with them. By "basket hold" I mean the restraint grip a lot of adults use pretty much instinctively to control kids having a tantrum; you're standing or kneeling behind the kid and holding both of their wrists so their arms are crossed in front of their bodies.

            The danger is that if it's applied against a bigger kid who is seriously losing it, the restrainer can lose balance and end up lying on top of the kid; the restrainer's body weight + the crossed position of the kid's arms squeezes the kid's lungs and they can't breathe. Since the restrainer is behind the kid, s/he can't tell the difference between "aggressively trying to get away" and "desperately trying to breathe"; coroners refer to the result as "positional asphyxia".

            Comment


              #51
              One point from the OP, regarding palm strikes to the chest... I think that would be a bad idea with youth. On a small kid, that could cause cardiac arrest. Lots of kids have died after getting hit in the chest by a softball or the like.

              Comment


                #52
                yes, that is the basket hold i'm referring to. however, we were taught not to use it on kids over the age of 12 or 13 and to sit on the ground with them and wrap our legs around their waists to control their legs and keep us in an upright.

                overall, a stupid hold IMHO.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by white_kimbo
                  yes, that is the basket hold i'm referring to. however, we were taught not to use it on kids over the age of 12 or 13 and to sit on the ground with them and wrap our legs around their waists to control their legs and keep us in an upright.

                  overall, a stupid hold IMHO.
                  That's some degree of progress, it used to be the default hold. There are problems with the leg scissors restraint too, especially with kids who have been sexually assaulted in the past. I agree, it's a stupid hold and there are much better options.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by DdlR
                    That's some degree of progress, it used to be the default hold. There are problems with the leg scissors restraint too, especially with kids who have been sexually assaulted in the past. I agree, it's a stupid hold and there are much better options.
                    what would you reccomend over the basket hold or my OMG WRSTLOCKZ!!!!!!!!! reaction

                    Comment


                      #55
                      I've used Bruce Chapman's PRT hold several times, successfully with no pain or injury to anyone - it's basically a leverage takedown and double-arm restraint, very thoroughly described here: http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/63...scription.html

                      Bill Paul's nonviolent restraint system (also specifically intended for therapeutic care situations) teaches a flexible system of leverage based side-hold ground restraints, based on judo but modified for professional use.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        While I don't like the PPCT system one bit it is still based on proven techniques. I can't reccomend enough this book for those who want to take pain compliance and leverage techniques and add them too their tool box:

                        http://www.amazon.com/Defensive-Tact...1614146&sr=8-1

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by DdlR
                          [...]end up lying on top of the kid; the restrainer's body weight + the crossed position of the kid's arms squeezes the kid's lungs and they can't breathe. Since the restrainer is behind the kid, s/he can't tell the difference between "aggressively trying to get away" and "desperately trying to breathe"; coroners refer to the result as "positional asphyxia".
                          Basket Hold: Because sometimes, position is submission.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Sadly that PPCT stuff sounds miles better than the crap they spout at my hospital for dealing with Code White (violent person) situations. Sitting through the "non-violent restraint" video was interesting. I renamed it the "how to get yourself seriously hurt if someone actually wants to hurt you" video. Every single technique had no concept of defense for the applicator and wouldn't actually restrain someone who was resisting. It was just sad.

                            This is due to a massive fear of lawsuits and perpetuated by the fact that there are very few in-hospital incidents where you get someone who really want to hurt someone. Most of the crazy people just act up for attention and once a bunch of people show up for the code they settle down. That said there have been two truly violent incidents where I was a part of.

                            The first was on the psych unit. I was working on the floor directly below it so when they called the code I was the first one there. When I got there this big guy was struggling with two security guards, the biggest of whom was probably 160 soaking wet. He had one guy in a headlock and as I come in he slapped the other one in the face and knocked him over. A just rushed him and took him down with a double making sure I jammed my shoulder in his gut. He didn't fall very well and let go of the guy he had in the headlock. I slapped a kata-gatame on him (since I figured that was my best option so he couldn't bite me) and told him he needed to settle the fuck down or I was going to choke him unconcious. I think he was unprepared for the violence of my response and settled down pretty quick.

                            The other incident was another crazy dude in the psych unit. They had called a code and things seemed like they were going pretty well. He was co-operating, lying down on the strecher and they were putting restraints on him. He didn't want to take his shirt of though. Finally they forced the issue and he freaked out. He kicked one of the nurses trying to do the restraint really hard (cracked two ribs) and flew off the the stretcher. He was kind of flailing around after that but no-one really seemed to have a good idea of how to approach him without getting decked. We had him in the middle of a circle of about twenty people or so and he was just randomly punching out to keep everyone back. The psych nurses were starting to say we'd need to call the cops since no-one could deal with him. I waited until he swung out near me and caught his arm and took him down with a waki-gatame and told him to settle down or I'd break his arm (I left the fucking out since there were so many witnesses lol). That was fairly unecessary since once he was down about ten people dogpiled him and we got him in the restraints.

                            Now there's a specialized Code White Team and if you're not certified you're not supposed to be physically involved in codes. That suits me fine, I haven't done the training and haven't had to go to one since. I don't really want to respond to one since if it does get hairy I'll likely have to get involved and since I'm not supposed to if something did happen I'm certain my hospital would just throw me under the bus.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by Judobum
                              if something did happen I'm certain my hospital would just throw me under the bus.
                              yep, they would. i was scared i was going to get fired for my wristlock restraint. i had heard so many stories from nurses, psych techs, and orderlies about people getting thrown under busses for defending themselves against unruly patients.

                              it's one of the reasons i got out of social work and into banking.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                The sheriffs office I was at required the PPCT certification, also. And, like the other LEOs on here, I had to take the class. Fortunately, our training staff understood the limitations of PPCT, knew that several of us were MA types and that not everyone would jump into a situation (70/20/10). Yes, the "Stop resisting" yell for the cameras/witnesses is taught, as much as Kiai as Verbal Judo. Is it any good? Sure, as long as you are just trying to control someone and you mix in actual MA technique. You hit the ground with some perp trying to get to your weapon, or just willing to tangle with uniformed LEO, and you need to crank it up and go for survival with the real deal. Tough to go straight to the real time technique and not get sued silly or fired, but priority one is going home after your shift so you try to keep your ass in one piece.

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                                Working...
                                X