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Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT)

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    #16
    Yep. Bill Paul knew that and AFAIK he was senior enough in his regional mental health services hierarchy to get the program pushed through, but it seems to have tapered off after he died.

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      #17
      I've heard his name before...this site really should give some special recognition when that (or any good one) book comes out, I know I'll be lookin' to buy it.

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        #18
        I'm in occasional contact with the guy who's writing the book and I'll post on this forum when it becomes available.

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          #19
          lol, pressure points.

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            #20
            My old karate instructor is a LEO (specifically, he works in the county jail), and furthermore, was the guy who certified people in the Kalamazoo Sheriff's department for their defensive tactics training.
            Anyway, he alluded to PPCT a lot, and it got taught a fair amount in my class. Though none of the yelling "GET BACK" or any of that garbage; we stuck to the classical karate murderous scream when doing something important.
            My take on it:
            The strikes, for the most part, are decent towards the goal of making someone fall down without doing lasting damage. Obviously, a right cross to the jaw will put someone down much more easier than a whack on the side of the neck/brachial stun; but the right cross has a much higher chance of breaking some of those tiny bones in your face than than the brachial stun.
            Thus, the latter becomes less of a liability.
            The kick to the thigh is, as it was explained to me, the same as a traditional muay thai/every other martial art style roundhouse to the leg.
            The locks/takedowns (staight arm/waki gatame, escort wrist lock) are all quite familiar as well. My coach testifies that he has used these succesfully on inmates, which to me suggests that even low-percentage moves work with a reliable degree of success on people with zero grappling skills.
            But yeah, it's really not the best system.

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              #21
              done it. if you have any previous MA experience the training is a bit tame, IMO. some of the stuff is good for the un-trained though.

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                #22
                Originally posted by TheMightyMcClaw
                The kick to the thigh is, as it was explained to me, the same as a traditional muay thai/every other martial art style roundhouse to the leg.
                Roundhouse to the side of the leg sounds good because we know it's a legit technique in-and-of-itself, but personally, I think it's a retarded technique for the situations they're using it in.

                Those kind of kicks are mostly good for chopping down a person's legs over the course of a fight or to set up punches up high to follow. Unless you knock the living shit out of a person, circular techniques won't stop a person's advance since their momentum carries them forward. Unless I'm missing something (possible, I'm not a LEO), a push kick would be a much more logical technique to include in their program.

                Oh, and not to mention the half-assed foot & hip turn of a person who's done 2-days worth of practice with the kick is just asking to get pushed over onto the floor. I think it's a lot easier for people with no prior training to understand "ok, pretend you're kicking down a door".
                Last edited by maofas; 1/06/2009 4:11am, .

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                  #23
                  In an environment where you know the detainee's haven't had access to street drugs, pressure points can be useful. Pain compliance won't work when the subject is intoxicated enough to not feel the pain. Joint locks work well because even if a wrist or shoulder lock does not cause the subject any pain, the immobilization is still effective.
                  I have sat through many training sessions/ classes where PCCT (and similar methods) are taught, but when it comes time to take control, you do what it takes to come out on top.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by madmagus777

                    And that was it. I feel that the course was largely bullshit. The instructors knew I had previous MA experience and I was told to "forget all that shit you already know." The instructor also struck a "kungfu" stance with a Bruce Lee shriek when he said this. They also told me I can't go using "UFC stuff".
                    hahahahahah...bruce lee shriek....awesome!!!

                    over here they appearantly use the same shit, 2 friends of mine and one of my uncles work as a prisonguard, some years ago my uncle showed me some moves they had to learn over some1 or 2 week course and it was pretty much what you described.

                    i guess it works when you're with two or more guards on a prisoner, i wouldnt trust it in a one on one situation.
                    hell i wouldnt trust most ' styles' in a one to two situation like you described with that escape.

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                      #25
                      It makes me feel dirty to say so, but Lebell makes a good point. LEO tactics in prisons or mental health facilities or juvenile detention halls are generally intended for 2-or-more-on-1.

                      McClaw's post should supercede mine, he makes similar points but better. Standing armbars are standing armbars, even if the course teaching them is lame-tastic.

                      The #1 aggravating thing for me about courses like this is that they are designed (much like most women's s-d) as one-off programs, which anybody with half a brain knows won't teach bupkus. Same with police hand-to-hand training. We're basically talking about people having exposure to techniques (nothing more than being shown, really), then expected to figure out something that works when they need to restrain someone. Please tell me that cuffing tactics are more advanced than their empty hand restraints!

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                        #26
                        My Goju Jitsu instructor teaches this stuff, he integrates it with the standard standing arm looks and wrist controls.

                        He also teaches it with the psychology that pain compliance techniques only work in certain situations and must be done with the goal of deescalating a situation and are for situations like moving a drunk or belligerent person not for combat.

                        He also teaches them with a kubaton, that metal bar thing that you can hang your keys on.

                        PPCT with a kubaton = extremely pain!

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                          #27
                          Slamming "get back" and other verbalizations is a really good indicator that person dosen't know what they are talking about. Verbalizing loudly what you want the attacker/ person being physcially controlled is done for two very important reasons:

                          1. People in pain don't know what you want them to do unless you tell them.

                          2. It tells all the witnesses, who may very well be testifying against you otherwise, what your intentions are. Especially since the use of force is never pretty and the winner frequently looks like the aggressor.

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                            #28
                            Hospitals, detention centers, etc. need to require training for this stuff equal to their classes on sexual harrassment, privacy protection, information security and other assorted bullcrap.

                            My admittedly jaded opinion is that organizations are more concerned with legalities after the fact than equipping staff for altercations.

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                              #29
                              PPCT can work on someone who is semi-compliant, meaning a person who is pissed off but not intent in hurting you. Administrators tend to like things which have been "certified" and are defensible in court. If PPCT is not enough for your needs (meaning you regularly deal with highly aggressive people who want to severely hurt you) you can look into stuff like Tony Blauer's SPEAR system. SPEAR is popular with a lot of law enforcement agencies and they have done a lot of work to research and document their methodology to make it defensible in court.
                              Last edited by rw4th; 1/06/2009 12:47pm, .

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                                #30
                                One of the other issues of any LEO training is 2 days of anything BJJ, PPCT or what ever won't do much good.

                                People who look for quick fixes and easy answers are going to be disappointed.

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