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WC Horse still twitching. Let's beat it some more.

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    WC Horse still twitching. Let's beat it some more.

    So I've taken to arguing with this kid in Madrid about the ol' Chun on Youtube and the way it goes is he sends me videos proving how deadly the Chun is, and I make fun of them. However there are a few videos that don't look so terrible and a few videos that are godawful and I can't remember all the things I've already learned from previous Bullshido comments about them. I don't want to give his youtube identity and it isn't really proper to reproduce his messages, but here's something I wrote back to him. I guess what I'm asking is on a few of those videos they really aren't so terrible, so am I just being a dick who's stuck in denial and the WC guys are okay, or am I actually taking it easy on him? He just sent me a new batch of videos I should watch tonight, so here's the Dec. 13th batch. Feel free to flame me for post-whoring too if you like, because we all know I do a lot of that.

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Chun
    Wing Chun practitioners play Chi Sao a lot, but often they do not fight. They have a reputation for not fighting all over the world. Why do you think there is no system for fighting MMA? Most MMA fighters train in roughly the same way: they put together a grappling system, either Brazilian jiujitsu, Judo, Sambo or Wrestling together with a striking system, usually either Kyukoshin, Boxing or Muay Thai kickboxing. Is that not a system? What makes WC work in the real world but not work in MMA?

    I am not sure what you are trying to tell me with the story about your mother. Noses are very breakable. I have a huge bruise across my nose right now as I type this :-)

    If you do a lot of sparring and it's not realistic, what are you doing? What rules are you using and what techniques are you using? Maybe you think you are sparring and aren't or you're more realistic than you think. I would be interested to hear.

    Below, I will comment about the videos you sent me as I watch them:

    YouTube - Wing Chun vs. Kickboxing dude
    I have seen this video before. The biggest problem with it is that I have seen several kickboxers comment on it and they all agree that the "kickboxer" is not a kickboxer. He is a WC student pretending to be a kickboxer for the video. Also, as you pointed out, it's pretty easy to be faster than the other guy when your gloves are lighter than his. I do respect the school for making a good attempt at sparring and I hope they learn something from it.

    YouTube - Wing Chun vs San Shou (Russian Wing Chun Academy)
    This looks to me like another example of WC students pretending at being another style. For me the first clue is the San Shou guy does not know how to shoot for a double-leg takedown. He is a striker pretending to do it. It's easy to beat somebody who is fighting out of character and using unfamiliar techniques. The WC fighter does demonstrate that he himself has no knowledge of how to fight on the ground at the end. A good wrestler, judo or jiujitsu player would have ended the match at around 3:20 when he had his opponent's back.

    YouTube - Wing tsun guy vs karate guy
    I like that you used a video from bullshido for this one. We have all seen this one too. First of all, it has been established that both students were extreme novices. I will try to look up the thread about this video because I remember there being some question about whether the "WC" fighter did WC. The "WC" fighter also uses a lot of hook punches. Where is the centerline concept being used? If I remember that fight correctly, it also ended with the WC fighter applying an extremely amateur armbar to the other fighter. Where in WC are you taught arm bars?

    YouTube - Wing Chun one inch power
    YouTube - Makoto Kabayama Demonstrating the One Inch Punch
    The One Inch Punch is a parlor trick and always demonstrated against an unresisting partner. It does not resemble the body mechanics of a real punch and cannot be applied in a fight. Please show me evidence of a real fight which uses a one inch punch, otherwise I will continue to believe that it is a trick, just like karate people breaking blocks of ice or kung fu students balancing on plumflower posts.

    YouTube - Wing Chun Kung Fu Force Generation (AWESOME!)
    This is a compliant drill. Why do you keep thinking that compliant drills prove anything about fighting? If I have a partner who plays along with me I can make anything work. Look at the push at 1:05. If he is pushing on the student's forearms and that is what makes the student move, why don't his forearms bend? The students in this video are all either jumping or intentially stumbling. If the student pushing the sifu at 2:00 is really pushing so hard, why does he keep one leg in front of him to keep his balance instead of putting both legs behind him and leaning into the push? The answer is it's because he isn't pushing.

    YouTube - Wing Chun Kung Fu Competition
    Very good. I can't fault this. It's Wing Chun sparring. Thank you for showing me. However, if this is full-contact I would say that this proves chain punches are weak, since any boxer would do more damage with his punches than this. Their hook punches are especially weak, which is not unexected since WC doesn't train them.

    YouTube - Wing Chun vs Mantis boxing (Russian Wing Chun Academy)
    Vs. Mantis boxing? Are you serious? That's like WC vs. table tennis. We don't need any additional proof that animal-style kung fu doesn't work. However, even now I have to ask how what that guy is doing looks like mantis boxing. I have studied a bit of Northern Shaolin Seven Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu and it didn't look like bad kickboxing. This video looks more like bad kickboxing vs. worse kickboxing.

    YouTube - Wing Chun free fight (Russian Wing Chun Academy)
    I like their energy. When you fight with MMA rules and protective equipment, where is the WC? They look like they try to keep a WC guard and chain a little, but other than that this looks like extremely amateur MMA. What is their groundfighting curriculum? It isn't WC.

    YouTube - Real Wing Chun Kung Fu
    We start with Chi Sao, which isn't sparring. The biggest problem is even if you get good at Chi Sao, does it help you defend yourself against people really trying to hit you with real punches from a real range?
    Now we're watching an MMA match with no WC in it.
    More Chi Sao...not interested.
    Oh my god, an old bald guy doing a kata. Not what I wanted to see.
    A videotaped compliant drill...not interested.
    4:10 Hook punches. Not WC.
    Bruce Lee. Compliant drill/Chi Sao...not interested.
    Chi Sao.
    5:40 This looks pretty much like Wing Chun. It also looks like a lot of flailing around that a good kickboxer would defend handily against.
    Chi Sao...not interested. Do you understand that it's not as simple as just turning your fast chops into punches? He's moving that fast because his hands are moving in circles and not colliding with anything. He would not punch that fast.
    Fat guy doing Chi Sao...not interested.


    What I am interested in seeing is a known WC practitioner fighting a known practitioner of something else in a real match. I don't want to see demonstrations. I don't want to see Chi Sao. I definitely don't want to see Bruce Lee. I don't want to hear a story about how your teacher fought against Muay Thai guys twenty years ago unless he was 1. Using WC. 2. Willing to name the MT fighters and 3. Videoing the event.

    FTR In my wing chun we did practice arm bars, hook punches and uppercuts. I guess it depends on the teacher and how "pure" your style is.

    Our sparring ranged from piss weak to medium contact. Anyway not trying to validate it just adding my 5 cents, And no thats not twitching you see, its actually millions of maggots from billions of flies eating the festering rotting meat and practicing chi sao under the skin.


      Honestly, I think that those Russian WC sparring videos show that, if you spar on a regular basis, Wing Chun is a) an alright striking art) and b) starts looking like every other striking art.
      It still had the punching style signature of Chun, but footwork, clinching, and knees which look like.... every other striking MA's footwork, clinching, and knees.
      I've fought a good number of chunners, some of whom trained live, some of whom didn't. I even fought one at the Detroit Throwdown. The ones who sparred regularly were decent strikers, the one's who didn't weren't. Much like how karateka, kickboxers, and people of every other martial art tend to be decent if they spar a lot and tend to suck if they don't.
      Honestly, I feel Wing Chun is not as deserving of ridicule as the likes of, say, Aikido and Ninjutsu.


        Originally posted by TheMightyMcClaw
        Honestly, ...
        Honestly, I feel Wing Chun is not as deserving of ridicule as the likes of, say, Aikido and Ninjutsu.
        1) You used "Honestly" twice. This is unacceptable to me.

        2) The Chun talks a mean game, is why they get so much crap. They talk more smack than TKD, and that's why (despite the fact that TKD and the Chun are very similar in terms of general usefulness and frequency of good sparring across schools) the Chun gets tossed into the GRAB MY WRIST and tabi-boot end of the spectrum.


          The new crop of videos I was sent today looks more like the couple that look okay, although you're right that the Chunness of it starts to diminish as you add Aliveness. In fact, that's a new sliding scale for us. Chun vs. Alive.

          I'll look more in-depth at the vids in a day or two and see if they just dazzle me at first. Maybe it's only chun in the Anglosphere that sucks.


            Personally, I love how in the beginning of the last video, the "Master" is doing Chi Sao with the same speed and power as his partner then goes on to practically throw himself at his partner to push his partner back in order to show dominance.

            Also, as a response to the one inch punch video:
            YouTube - Derren Brown - Oneinchpunch
            This is a great video to show people who believe in the One Inch Punch or Chi.


              Chun isn't as bad as Aikido/Ninjutsu/Systema, but it's worse than TKD in my opinion. Only because TKD is more widespread than the Chun is shitty does it get more flack.


                Originally posted by 1point2
                1) You used "Honestly" twice. This is unacceptable to me.

                2) The Chun talks a mean game, is why they get so much crap. They talk more smack than TKD, and that's why (despite the fact that TKD and the Chun are very similar in terms of general usefulness and frequency of good sparring across schools) the Chun gets tossed into the GRAB MY WRIST and tabi-boot end of the spectrum.
                1) I really do apologize. I try to avoid using repetitive diction, but sometimes I slip up.
                2) This is true. But given that it is only certain sectors of the Wing Chun community talking trash, just as it is only certain sectors training with regular live practice, I feel like it's hard to hold the whole accountable; there's too much diversity within the WC community. This could be contrasted to the likes of Aikido, where frequent hard randori is rare as horse's teeth, to the point where the absence of it becomes a defining characteristic of the art.


                  New response to my hero in Madrid. His video selection has improved greatly actually. I'm starting to lean toward McClaw's way of thinking.

                  YouTube - reto wing tsun vs full contact
                  I'm not so sure where the WC is. The punches when he grounded and pounded his opponent weren't on centerline. Is that takedown part of WC? Nice fight and he pwned his opponent though.

                  YouTube - Wing Chun full contact (Wing Tsun Kong Sau)
                  I did see a good WC jam toward the beginning but it seems like it goes away awfully quick. Is it worth practicing a martial art that you use for less than 1% of a fight?

                  YouTube - Wing Chun- Full Contact
                  This looks more like WC. It also looks like pretty bad fighting. Do these guys ever fight non-chunners? I expect it would look pretty different.

                  YouTube - Mantis boxing vs Wing Chun
                  Interesting. They're pretty amateurish but it looks like a good time. Looks mostly like amateur MMA with a little bit of WC posturing in between punches.

                  YouTube - Wing Chun vs San Shou (Russian Wing Chun Academy)
                  Where does the Russian Wing Chun Academy get all these guest stars for their videos? The "San Shou" guy is pretty aggressive, but shouldn't he be trying to grapple a bit more? The chunner is very good at actually maintaining his style without freaking out. It speaks well of their training methods and his faith in the chun.

                  YouTube - Wing Tsun biffo
                  I like these kids.

                  YouTube - Wing Chun free fight (Russian Wing Chun Academy)
                  Again, good job from the Russian WC Academy.

                  This is the strangest ruleset I've ever seen. If you can't hit the head, what the hell are all the pads for? Although, I see hooks and round kicks. where's the WC?

                  YouTube - Nederlandse Wing Chun kampioenschappen 2007
                  Probably an interesting find, but I can't get much from still photos. A lot of the moments look like there's chun in them but they could be cherrypicked. I'll assume not.

                  YouTube - wing chun sparring
                  Why do these chunners wear TKD shirts? This is an interesting example of actual trapping, but if they're both chunners, why not trap once in a while?

                  YouTube - TWC Stories: Full Kontakt
                  "Hospital Punch?" I hope that nickname is translated from a cooler-sounding language. :-P. Good chun form from the guy on the left though.

                  Here's that funny ruleset again. Who came up with this nonsense? He does at least have low punches that look more like Chun. Did you happen to go to his website wehre he mentions that he has studied Catch Wrestling and BJJ with Leo Nagao? That doesn't sound like he represents Chun to me.

                  One serious question though: you mentioned in an earlier conversation that trapping is not an artificial range. If that's so, where was the trapping in these videos except in the one WC vs. WC video? I saw people go through the arbitrary and artificial trapping range from punching to clinch. If you're still looking for videos, find me some real trapping.

                  In truth, you have convinced me to take a closer look at WC before assuming it's crap. I still think that if all I have to go for is the name of the gym, a Wing Chun school is going to be on the bottom of my list when looking for a new gym.

                  Oh, and before I go, take a look at this expose on the one inch punch: YouTube - Derren Brown - Oneinchpunch
                  The martial arts are full of parlor tricks like the one inch punch. They aren't worth wasting time on.

                  Thanks for the great videos.




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