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    #31
    I meant that it is highly unlikely that kata in general in it's original creation was never intended to represent combat in any way.

    I fully agree that there are individual 'kata', such as what is performed by XMA artists for example, which no longer represent actual combat, and where the performer is unlikely to be even imagining any opponents.

    But to my mind at least, this is no longer 'kata', and has strayed from what could legitimately be described as kata to a mere dance or gymnastic routine or display. By my understanding of the term, it is a defining criterion of kata that it be at least intended in the practitioner's mind as a representation of some kind of combat.

    If there are respected masters who disagree, they are welcome to do so. They can go practice their animal frolics and pelvis thrusts.

    This might be a good point to end this derail, and let the thread return to its comedic origins.

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      #32
      Originally posted by It is Fake
      Yet, all of this anecdotal evidence rejects the idea that, there are hundreds of thousands of people out there that have never done kata that learned all the things you just experienced.
      No it doesn't. It rejects nothing of the sort. Seriously, how many times would you like me to repeat that I'm NOT saying kata is a necessary component of training?? I'm just saying that it can have something to offer beyond mere fitness.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by Tetsujin
        I meant that it is highly unlikely that kata in general in it's original creation was never intended to represent combat in any way.
        I disagree.


        I fully agree that there are individual 'kata', such as what is performed by XMA artists for example, which no longer represent actual combat, and where the performer is unlikely to be even imagining any opponents.
        Yep. Modern Wushu is another example.


        But to my mind at least, this is no longer 'kata', and has strayed from what could legitimately be described as kata to a mere dance or gymnastic routine or display. By my understanding of the term, it is a defining criterion of kata that it be at least intended in the practitioner's mind as a representation of some kind of combat.
        Which means it is your Opinion. Which is why I called you on the use of the word "fact" regardless on how you worded the sentence.


        If there are respected masters who disagree, they are welcome to do so. They can go practice their animal frolics and pelvis thrusts.
        Ahh the dismissive tone of someone who can preach but, gets upset when met with disagreement.


        This might be a good point to end this derail, and let the thread return to its comedic origins.
        Uhmm, if you think we ever strayed from the comedic value you are on the wrong web forum.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Tetsujin
          I'm just saying that it can have something to offer beyond mere fitness.
          Let's assume it does. Is it anything you couldn't gain in other ways? Would that time be better spent on the various other training exercises?

          Hint: No, yes.

          Comment


            #35
            Whenever I see links like these:

            http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html

            The first thing that comes to mind is, what is this person's grappling background? It seems that the ones who write the most (and the most absurd) stuff about grappling in a real fight tend to have the least (or the most absurd) amount of practical grappling experience. Fpr example:

            When not to use grappling
            Basically don't use it in a "self-defense" situation.

            You are not there to engage an opponent. You are not there to fight an opponent. In a self-defense situation you are seeking to protect your life or prevent "grievous bodily injury" to yourself. That is not time to be thinking about fighting, you need to concern yourself more with getting the hell out of there and to safety. Most legitimate self-defense situations are not single adversary or without weapons.

            Even if it is a one-on-one situation, a basic problem arises if you are attempting to subdue someone in a self-defense situation: After you have him in a nice submission hold, how are you going to get to the phone to call the police? This is just one of the problems that arises out of not knowing the difference between self-defense and fighting, much less the difference between martial arts and fighting..

            And while we are on the subject, it's probably not the best idea to use it in a fight either.

            Not to put too fine of a point on it, but there are serious legal consequences about fighting. What's worse is, even if the other guy "started it ," if your actions "go over the top" abpit what a "reasonable" person would consider "self-defense" you are in deep trouble. While it may be acceptable to do a knee mount and strike a downed opponent in the ring, sitting on someone's chest and jack-hammering his head off off the concrete isn't going to pass for anybody's definition of "self-defense." In many states, a choke hold is considered use of lethal force.

            You're going to be in some deep legal trouble if you use your hardcore, kick-ass grappling techniques on someone and they suffer serious injury. Which is really likely if you are sitting on his chest punching him.
            Wow. When not to use grappling, huh. I like how he forgets to mention the fact that usually, if you are already in a fight, you no longer have a choice whether to "use grappling" or not. I mean, I'm obviously in a position to use it as a means of escaping a bad position. What should I use, karate? Maybe wing chun so I can chain punch my way off the ground?

            I also like that fact that grapplers tend to be more interested in ground and pound when fighting. He must have forgot about all those submissions that you can attempt. Oh, but that's right, you don't want to apply a submission/restraint because then you can't call for backup on your cell phone. I guess you have a better chance of using your cell phone while doing ground and pound from knee-on-belly and mount.

            Because, you know, that's what all the cool MMA fighters do...T.O. style!

            Comment


              #36
              That's why TKD is teh ultimate: both hands free to call 911 while tornado kicking the serial mugger/rapist/child pornographer/homeless person!

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by hungryjoe
                How much do you actually fight? Contact beyond tappy pulled punches?

                Have you ever sparred "live" against anyone else other than your dojo?

                Just asking and not trying to be an asshole.

                Joe
                No problem.

                I do contact sparring (with protective gear - gloves, shinpads, and headgear) once a week. I only get to train once a week due to my work schedule. I would love to train more often. We use controlled contact when sparring with lower grades obviously, but between blackbelts we are free to fight at full contact, and that is what I practice.
                I've never fought anyone outside of the dojos where I've trained because I have no interest in tournaments or competition, but the various dojos I've trained with have all placed a strong emphasis on contact sparring. At my shodan grading (eight years ago) I fought until nearly knocked out by a roundhouse kick, took a round out to recover, then kept fighting.
                I am not new to sparring against a live resisting opponent with real contact.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Tetsujin
                  No it doesn't. It rejects nothing of the sort. Seriously, how many times would you like me to repeat that I'm NOT saying kata is a necessary component of training?? I'm just saying that it can have something to offer beyond mere fitness.
                  I don't know because earlier you said it was basically a valuable tool.

                  Originally posted by Tetsujin
                  And while of not much value for fighting by itself, when trained in conjunction with actual contact sparring and padwork kata can be quite valuable in contributing to fighting skill by teaching fundamentals of balance, movement, timing, and smooth transitions between various techniques and combinations.
                  So, I guess this is the first time.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    YouTube - Radki Challenge

                    At 2:17 -- "Dude, you're shielding."

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Hesperus
                      Let's assume it does. Is it anything you couldn't gain in other ways? Would that time be better spent on the various other training exercises?

                      Hint: No, yes.
                      Actual answers: (i) No (as I've now stated at least three times); and (ii) Depends on one's goals...

                      As I've also already said, if you just want to be an awesome fighter kata may not be the most efficient training method, but if you enjoy kata as more than just a means to an end then you might want to spend some time on it. And if you do then you can learn things that will be applicable to your fighting.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by It is Fake
                        I don't know because earlier you said it was basically a valuable tool.
                        Valuable, but not necessary. That's what I've been saying.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          The value of doing kata depends on how well the kata was made and the student's personal feelings doing said kata. When I did Kata, it did help with my flexibility, stances, and muscle memory.
                          However, I will more than likely not use a "horse stance" in a fight. Flexibility, I could've trained by stretching and shadow boxing using kicks. Muslce memory of how to pull off a particular punch or kick correctly from a one type of stance to another, again shadow boxing. I personally find shadow boxing to be a better alternative to kata. Instead of a set list of moves that I have to do, I can string together various combinations that may be helpful in a fight.
                          Furthermore, so many schools have seen kata as just a form of busy work so that the student thinks he/she is doing something that is worth their time and money. Kata just becomes filler to actual training at these schools. Not to mention that the schools will create their own kata that is only detrimental to them.
                          Last edited by Demon Eyes; 12/31/2008 1:56am, .

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Tetsujin
                            Please don't make me link to a dictionary definition.

                            I said "represent". Kata is by definition a formalized and somewhat abstract REPRESENTATION of an actual fighting situation.

                            A painting can be as impressionistic as you like, and yet still represent a very real scene or object.
                            To use your analogy a painting can be a window into the past just because you view a painting of a napoleonic battlefield doesn't mean wars are still fought that way.

                            How old are most TMA Katas?

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Vorpal
                              Goddamn, I'm married. We'll run out of internet if I try to post every stupid argument I've heard.
                              We will NEVER run out of Internets. Never!!! No Peak Internets!
                              Now, you take that back, right now you hear!?!
                              "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
                              ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

                              "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
                              ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

                              "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
                              ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by markcos262
                                To use your analogy a painting can be a window into the past just because you view a painting of a napoleonic battlefield doesn't mean wars are still fought that way.
                                That's a fair point. But saying that the techniques of a kata may be outdated is different from claiming that it is impossible in principle for kata to have any relevance to fighting skill.

                                My point is that just because the painting is a representation of a battle rather than an actual battle itself, this doesn't mean there is nothing that can possibly be learned from studying the painting.

                                Originally posted by markcos262
                                How old are most TMA Katas?
                                I honestly don't know. But do you really think that karate kata techniques are any more likely to be outdated than those of Bujinkan Taijutsu??

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