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BaGuaZhang Groundfighting, the shizzle or bullshido?

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    #31
    Originally posted by aaaargh
    In its formative years the Kodokan did not have much of a ground curriculim. They were having challenge matches regularly against traditional jujutsu schools and defeating all comers. However they eventually ran across Fusen Ryu, a jujutsu style specializing in newaza; the kodokan got its butt kicked.

    So of course they went on the internet and complained about how the rules were biased, how judo worked better "in the street," etc (haha).

    As a result they incorporated Fusen Ryu's curriculum as part of judo.

    Maybe that's the story you heard.
    Ah, my mistake, I didn't realise Kano had started teaching at that point, I had thought he was just a student at that tournament.

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      #32
      Supposedly newaza got quite popular in judo after that before eventually being toned down by rules.

      As for the CMA guys, why would they want to go to the ground? Ancient china was litterd with broken glass and Ming dynasty pottery.

      Comment


        #33
        Originally posted by It is Fake


        You've been following him around since the BET show aired haven't you?

        He has been discussed here longer than that. Baguag Groundfighting is a bad title except, he does bagua.

        If he realizes Bagua Groundfighting doesn't exist, even if it is because of the show, that is a good thing. After all the idiots I have encountered, an idiot, that actually looked embarrased, after getting owned by a kid giving up 80-100 pounds I'm going to hope for the best.

        There are thousands of CMAers that spout the garbage he does who will never do any type of legit grappling. They find DVD sources and add it on and then claim they are some type of expert.

        Now this is bullshido so, you know people are checking into Richard Garcias background. I'll pass complete judgment after the inquiries come to fruition. Until then, as asinine as this idiot is he crossed a line that most delusional CMAers refuse to cross.

        Sorry, I have a bit of respect for anyone (Osiris, Wolf, Virus, anyone I missed) that is willing to step up and get owned.
        You've actually made some really good points. I guess we're pretty much on the same page.

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by It is Fake
          He has been discussed here longer than that. Baguag Groundfighting is a bad title except, he does bagua.

          If he realizes Bagua Groundfighting doesn't exist, even if it is because of the show, that is a good thing. After all the idiots I have encountered, an idiot, that actually looked embarrased, after getting owned by a kid giving up 80-100 pounds I'm going to hope for the best.

          There are thousands of CMAers that spout the garbage he does who will never do any type of legit grappling. They find DVD sources and add it on and then claim they are some type of expert.

          Now this is bullshido so, you know people are checking into Richard Garcias background. I'll pass complete judgment after the inquiries come to fruition. Until then, as asinine as this idiot is he crossed a line that most delusional CMAers refuse to cross.
          Sorry, I have a bit of respect for anyone (Osiris, Wolf, Virus, anyone I missed) that is willing to step up and get owned.
          I think this is what we should be really focusing on. IIF is correct there are numerous CMA "Masters" that claim to have grappling in their system where it never existed, or claim to have some secret "Shaolin Grappling" system that is similar to BJJ (go search for it there is a thread with video somewhere here)

          Regardless if you think BT is a total moron asshole he has at least acknowledged that;

          A. Grappling is important.
          B. What he was doing before was not good grappling.
          C. He needs to train a legitimate grappling system to supplement any stand up skills he
          has.

          All 3 of the above are things that an overwhelming number of CMAers will never admit to anyone let alone themselves. In addition he has stated that he intends to compete in a grappling tournament, which is the next logical step.

          Is what he's doing the uber secret super deadly BGZ Grappling? No. It's BJJ with his own little twist added in. What he'll find when he actually competes is either his BGZ alterations work or that they get him tapped out.

          At the moment I am willing to wait and see where this goes. He admitted to training BJJ, he admits that he is not an expert grappler in any way (while many other CMA based "ground grapplers" will claim they are experts) and he intends to compete. I can't wait to see how that goes.
          安氏八极拳学生

          Comment


            #35
            As to "BGZ is not a grappling style," I have a question: "what is a grappling style?" Is Chinese Wrestling a grappling style, or is only styles with ground fighting considered grappling? What about submissions, is American high school wrestling a legitimate grappling style? (Real question here, not making an argument: BGZ is considered to have two major branches, one "striking" and one "grappling" (Chinsese Wrestling style), so it raises questions about what types of Mongolian wrestling may or may not show up on the Bullshido grappling-style catagory.)


            Originally posted by It is Fake
            Yes and no.

            Tim is a BJJ Black Belt.
            Right, as far as I know he's the only BGZ master that is also a BJJ blackbelt, which is precisely why I would consider him the world's foremost authority on how much grappling is or is not in BGZ.

            One reason why Tai Chi and BGZ consider themselves "grappling" styles is because they do a lot of clinching, throwing, and other stud-up grappling stuff, which contrasted to other CMA is reletively-speaking pretty high on the grappling scale, though obviously it has nothing that would be considered ground fighting by MMA standards.

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by BFGalbraith
              As to "BGZ is not a grappling style," I have a question: "what is a grappling style?" Is Chinese Wrestling a grappling style, or is only styles with ground fighting considered grappling? What about submissions, is American high school wrestling a legitimate grappling style? (Real question here, not making an argument: BGZ is considered to have two major branches, one "striking" and one "grappling" (Chinsese Wrestling style), so it raises questions about what types of Mongolian wrestling may or may not show up on the Bullshido grappling-style catagory.)




              Right, as far as I know he's the only BGZ master that is also a BJJ blackbelt, which is precisely why I would consider him the world's foremost authority on how much grappling is or is not in BGZ.

              One reason why Tai Chi and BGZ consider themselves "grappling" styles is because they do a lot of clinching, throwing, and other stud-up grappling stuff, which contrasted to other CMA is reletively-speaking pretty high on the grappling scale, though obviously it has nothing that would be considered ground fighting by MMA standards.
              I was having the same thoughts when composing previous posts. What exactly constitutes a grappling style? An overwhelming majority of Asian wrestling systems only do stand up clinching/grappling/throwing. If any part of your body besides the bottoms of your feet touch the ground you are considered down (Judo is an exception).

              When speaking about grappling I think we just need to specify if we are talking about Stand up grappling (Tai Ji, Ssrieum, Sumo, Mongolian Wrestling, Tibetan Wrestling, Shuai Qiao etc.) or Ground Grappling (Greco Roman, Freestyle, Judo, BJJ, Sambo, etc.)

              I don't anyone here is trying to label one as grappling and the other as something else, their just 2 branches of the same tree.
              安氏八极拳学生

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by BFGalbraith
                As to "BGZ is not a grappling style," I have a question: "what is a grappling style?" Is Chinese Wrestling a grappling style, or is only styles with ground fighting considered grappling? What about submissions, is American high school wrestling a legitimate grappling style? (Real question here, not making an argument: BGZ is considered to have two major branches, one "striking" and one "grappling" (Chinsese Wrestling style), so it raises questions about what types of Mongolian wrestling may or may not show up on the Bullshido grappling-style catagory.)
                This is semantics.

                We have established, in this discussion, the grappling definition we are using is for the actual submission ground arts. Once established, we don't have to repeat it in every post. I do it because, I've argued with enough CMAers, I know that grappling is a legit definition for clinch range.

                Other people use grappling to mean only submission arts.

                Your claim is actually irrelevant in this discussion because, we know BGZ ground fighting, as defined by Novell Bell, was akin to BJJ.


                Ground fighting in CMAs are up kicks, punches, leg sweeps, and moves to get back up to the striking/throwing strengths. It is not sambo, submission wrestling, BJJ, wrestling etc. We made that clear early in the thread.


                BGZ is a grappling art like Judo (minus the judo schools that teach submissions) when taught correctly. I'm not going to get into a debate which is better.


                One reason why Tai Chi and BGZ consider themselves "grappling" styles is because they do a lot of clinching, throwing, and other stud-up grappling stuff, which contrasted to other CMA is reletively-speaking pretty high on the grappling scale, though obviously it has nothing that would be considered ground fighting by MMA standards.
                Right. Again semantics. Grappling and clinching is not ground fighting as compared to what Novell is doing.

                This is a completely different argument already discussed in the CMA froum.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Yes we interchange grappling with ground fighting but, it was established at post 5 in this thread which we were discussing.

                  Before we get into a huge debate on the definition it doesn't matter in this particular thread. In this thread grappling=ground fighting=various submission arts.

                  Also, BF you might find this interesting:

                  Tai Chi
                  http://www.shenwu.com/taichi.htm
                  The ability to "stick, adhere, continue and follow (zhan, nian, lian, sui)" is vital to the application of Tai Ji Quan combat techniques, the majority of which are grappling oriented. Techniques that include pushing, pulling, wrapping, bumping, sweeping, locking, knocking down and throwing (grappling arts) far outnumber striking and kicking techniques. Solo forms training is designed to develop the ability to control oneself; paired practice trains the practitioner to apply the power developed during solo training to another in the most efficient manner.

                  BJJ
                  http://www.shenwu.com/bjjHistory.html
                  Even the rules of sport grappling matches are designed to ingrain the proper strategy to be applied in the street. For example in a sport BJJ match, points are awarded based on achieving superior positions, positions from which not only grappling techniques can be more readily applied, but also from which strikes may be applied or defended.

                  Even Tim Cartmell uses the word interchangeably. I agree with where you are going BF just not in this thread.

                  Grappling, as applied to this thread, concerning the first video, is defined as submission arts.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by It is Fake
                    BGZ is a grappling art like Judo (minus the judo schools that teach submissions) when taught correctly. I'm not going to get into a debate which is better.
                    There are Judo schools that don't teach submissions? :)

                    In all seriousness, though, by this you are referring to stand-up grappling, right? Throws, takedowns, and clinch-work?

                    --Joe

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Kung-Fu Joe
                      There are Judo schools that don't teach submissions? :)

                      In all seriousness, though, by this you are referring to stand-up grappling, right? Throws, takedowns, and clinch-work?

                      --Joe
                      Yes. We (not you and me but another thread) had this argument a long time ago. I agree grappling is Clinching, Throws, etc etc etc. See, you did it right IMO using Stand-up Grappling. Many traditionalists do not. This is not a knock on BFG I had to get schooled on the definition of wrestling. That it actually has two different categories.

                      Obviously one is more popular in the West than others but, it doesn't make the other use wrong.

                      The problem lies in the blurred line usage. What zealots ( again not BFG) do is argue grappling, try to back you into a corner, and then say ahahahaha see we do "grapple." They neglect to mention it is stand up grappling and use it as a crutch.

                      Stand up grappling is one thing. That videos the OP posted show, we are talking about submission or ground fighting specific arts, not stand up grappling.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by It is Fake
                        Even Tim Cartmell uses the word interchangeably. I agree with where you are going BF just not in this thread.

                        Grappling, as applied to this thread, concerning the first video, is defined as submission arts.
                        I suspect there is a lot of ground fighting leaking into CMA (that consider themselves fighting schools and not dance schools) right now, and I'm wondering what the source is. These Black Taoist videos suggest cross training with BJJ, but previously I was assuming it had to do with influence from western wrestling or Judo (because of evidence I've seen of this leakage at http://wudangdanpai.com/ and my suspicion that their ground fighting influence might predate UFC 1.)

                        Comment


                          #42
                          All BT has to do now is completely renounce and forsake all mention of "BaGuaZhang Groundfighting".
                          He should be straight up and say"I am crosstraining in BJJ and that's what I use for my ground game"
                          If he does this he would have redeemed himself.

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