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BaGuaZhang Groundfighting, the shizzle or bullshido?

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    BaGuaZhang Groundfighting, the shizzle or bullshido?

    Okay you grappling experts, check this out.
    Probably in response to all the ridicule and being accused of making up his groundfghting game BT posted these two videos:

    Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggjJFEcf4Ls

    Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahw3yXfK1nE


    So, is there such a thing as BaGuaZhang groundfighting, derived from moves that were hidden in the forms, or is Novell just pulling this out of his arse? You be the judge.

    #2
    PS: Looks like Novell doesn't allow any embedding, the viideos are still available you'll just have to click on the link.

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      #3
      I think I can safely say that I would not want to receive grappling instruction from this man.

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        #4
        I can all but guarantee that there was no groundfighting in original Baguazhang instruction. 99% of Chinese martialism doesn't take groundfighting into account at all, at least within a traditional sense. I doubt even Shuai Jiao has anything much in the way of groundfighting, because as I understand it going to the ground counts as a loss.
        Lord Krishna said: I am terrible time the destroyer of all beings in all worlds, engaged to destroy all beings in this world; Of those heroic soldiers presently situated in the opposing army, even without you none will be spared.
        Bhagavad Gita 11:32

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          #5
          There is no ground fighting in any Classical CMA (BJJ, wrestling, Sambo type ground fighting). Any that exists now is an add on from an already established ground fighting arts.

          Notice he is "working" his Bagua, with coaching, in a ring. Makes me wonder if he is actually training a submission art.

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            #6
            People who talk about movements "hidden" in forms are stupid.

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              #7
              Originally posted by Errant108
              People who talk about movements "hidden" in forms are stupid.
              "Hidden" usually means that whoever taught them the form didn't known the detail contained within it in the first place.

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                #8
                Originally posted by jdinca
                "Hidden" usually means that whoever taught them the form didn't known the detail contained within it in the first place.
                No hidden means pay me more money so I can unlock "teh secrets."

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                  #9
                  Hidden means your teacher either sucked or taught you wrong for the LULZ.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by It is Fake
                    Makes me wonder if he is actually training a submission art.
                    He says in the comments that he's been training BJJ with Richard Garcia, whose bio indicates that he studied under NYC Machado affiliate Marcos Santos (but doesn't say to what belt level). Bell also says in the extended description for the first video that he will compete in a grappling tournament in a future installment. It'll be interesting to see where this goes.
                    do, but take refuge in theory and talk

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                      #11
                      I've seen traditional Chinese Martial Arts with jointlocks that went to the ground (Doc Fai Wong's Choy Lay Fut,) but no groundfighing on the ground like in wrestling, Judo, BJJ, etc.
                      Don't feel too bad, even Judo didn't have ground fighting in it's early days of development. Good martial arts change, static ones become point-fighting &/or dance styles. In defense of what Black Taoist is trying to do here, when martial arts adapt new techniques into their art, these new techniques have to "fit into" the art in some way conceptually, which can seem to the mixing martial artists like these new techniques "have been there all along, just not emphasized."

                      Anyone interested in this subject IMHO should check out the works of Tim Cartmell, namely:
                      Amazon.com: The Method of Chinese Wrestling: Tong Zhongyi, Tim Cartmell: Books
                      (This has a lot of good stuff in it for people studying Chinese and/or Internal Martial Arts and want to know just what-exactly thier forms are getting at beyond the obvious striking applications - there is some common CMA forms stuff rooted in Chinese Wrestling (stand-up-grappling) techniques.)
                      Also his website:
                      http://www.shenwu.com/
                      And a Youtube advertisement:
                      YouTube - Tim Cartmell Standing Grappling DVD (sample)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by jackrusher
                        He says in the comments that he's been training BJJ with Richard Garcia, whose bio indicates that he studied under NYC Machado affiliate Marcos Santos (but doesn't say to what belt level). Bell also says in the extended description for the first video that he will compete in a grappling tournament in a future installment. It'll be interesting to see where this goes.
                        Well as long as he is upfront I don't care. the implication of the video is Bagua is doing this and it isn't.

                        It may help with his sensitivity but, it isn't from Bagua.

                        Anyone interested in this subject IMHO should check out the works of Tim Cartmell, namely
                        Yes and no.

                        Tim is a BJJ Black Belt.

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                          #13
                          To be fair I think Bell says at the beginning of the vid that he is working on developing grappling techniques based on BaGua Zhang principles, not that he has found hidden grappling techniques in the forms.

                          I think what he is doing is learning some legitimate grappling then examining the positions and techniques from a BaGua Zhang perspective to see what if any variations are available using BaGua Zhang style techniques.
                          安氏八极拳学生

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                            #14
                            I'm glad he has actually decided to grapple legitimately. Hopefully he'll stick with it for a while.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by jackrusher
                              He says in the comments that he's been training BJJ with Richard Garcia, whose bio indicates that he studied under NYC Machado affiliate Marcos Santos (but doesn't say to what belt level).
                              I have no problem whatsoever with Novell taking BJJ. My problem is with his BGZ grappling invention and him teaching it to people.

                              The above videos show what Novell calls BaGuaZhang grappling, not the BJJ he may or may not have learned.
                              The whole idea is that he is taking stand up techniques/tactics/principles etc and claims to apply them to the ground thus creating his own grappling system as it were.

                              There is no such thing as BaGuaZhang grappling. It's the ridiculous idea some Kung Fu guys have that they can take the same stuff you use for stand up and apply it on the ground.

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