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Catch Wrestling's Impact On MMA

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    Catch Wrestling's Impact On MMA

    I was reminded of this issue by Vince Tortelli, but figured I'd make it its own thread, because I guess maybe a lot of people don't think of this issue the same way as me.

    I view Catch Wrestling to be as important as BJJ in terms of impact on MMA. Without Catch, there would be no MMA in Japan. No fame for Rickson. No Pride. All those guys who quit the UFC to go to fight in Japan? They would have been working 9-5 instead.

    Also, no reality check for BJJ. Guard pulling without end.

    This isn't to overstate the importance of Catch currently, because it's no longer very important, but historically, MMA today would be shit without it. People ought to realize that, I think, especially those who got into MMA after Catch's direct relevance was basically over.

    #2
    I think everyone would fully agree that old school catch wrestlers played a huge role in the historical development of grappling. Grapplers of today owe them some gratitude for their efforts to spread their methods and techniques which lead directly to our current grappling/mma explosion. Unfortunately the current Catch Wrestlers are having to pick up where Catch turned into Pro Rasslin and start their development back up a good 50 years behind the current grappling scene. Maybe something awesome will come out of it, and maybe not.

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      #3
      I'd argue that plain ol greco roman and freestyle wrestling had as much to do with the BJJ guard check and the end to butt flopping, if not more.

      Otherwise, I can't say I really disagree.
      "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

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        #4
        Coleman and Kerr had already shown it was very possible to win fights inside BJJ guys guards before Pride rolled around. The Fujiwara/Gotch style of catch definitely had a huge influence on Japan's grappling scene, though, which had a significant effect on MMA in general.
        Undisputed KING OF ASSHOLES.

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          #5
          there's also the Renzo book on BJJ for MMA and it's basically Renzo does Greco/Catch. I think its an implicit acknowledgement by Renzo.

          As for nowadays, I know that Paulson's developing some very good fighters but he's not strictly catch. Does that matter?

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            #6
            Originally posted by theotherserge

            As for nowadays, I know that Paulson's developing some very good fighters but he's not strictly catch. Does that matter?
            Sort of off topic, but does anyone of note besides Barnett train with Paulson?

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              #7
              Originally posted by dokomoy
              Sort of off topic, but does anyone of note besides Barnett train with Paulson?

              Sean Sherk

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                #8
                Unfortunately the current Catch Wrestlers are having to pick up where Catch turned into Pro Rasslin
                Shooto started in 1985.

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                  #9
                  I don't think catch has had much impact on MMA development. Yes, it was involved in the early japanese fighters, but free style and greco have had huge impacts and they continue to be a large part of almost everyone's game. Catch doesn't have really any influence for most people in MMA. Would MMA really be much different without Sak and his gym or Barnett? What catch influences has MMA as a whole adopted?

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Geordi LaForge
                    Shooto started in 1985.
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[yt]Ti2cKBeqqJI

                    America- the Japanese do their own crazy things.

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                      #11
                      I look at it as kind of a regional thing. I mean yes, in Japan it was all about "teh Catch", but in Brazil in the early days of the Vale Tudo fights it was all about the Jiu-Jitsu, while in the US, (once MMA started to take hold here) there were a lot of Greco guys. Catch definately had a very legitamite influence, but I think it is felt more depending on th eregion you're looking at . Again, look at Japan. You don't see nearly as many BJJ guys coming out of Japan as you do guys like Sakuraba, but you see a lot more BJJ and Greco in the US than you see "catch" style fighters.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kintanon
                        I think everyone would fully agree that old school catch wrestlers played a huge role in the historical development of grappling. Grapplers of today owe them some gratitude for their efforts to spread their methods and techniques which lead directly to our current grappling/mma explosion. Unfortunately the current Catch Wrestlers are having to pick up where Catch turned into Pro Rasslin and start their development back up a good 50 years behind the current grappling scene. Maybe something awesome will come out of it, and maybe not.
                        Does "current catch wrestlers" include shooto guys?

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                          #13
                          I've heard a lot about Shooto matches frequently being worked, and it having a lot in common with the pre 1990 pro-wrestling scene as far as appearing (or trying to appear) realistic but being of questionable integrity. I've got very limited knowledge/experience of the Shooto scene though, so I don't know if they should be included in the "Current Catch Wrestlers" category or not. Based on what Geordi said they may be a decade or so ahead of the other Catch Wrestling branches in their development if they've been legit since they started, if not they may be in about the same place. It would be hard for me to tell without watching a lot of their competitions and seeing some of their guys in other comps. And to the best of my knowledge I haven't seen much if any of their stuff.

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                            #14
                            I don't think catch has had much impact on MMA development. Yes, it was involved in the early japanese fighters, but free style and greco have had huge impacts and they continue to be a large part of almost everyone's game. Catch doesn't have really any influence for most people in MMA. Would MMA really be much different without Sak and his gym or Barnett? What catch influences has MMA as a whole adopted?
                            Without Catch, this website wouldn't exist. For example. Faggot.

                            I've heard a lot about Shooto matches frequently being worked
                            That's news to me, but certainly possible. I know Pancrase and RINGS were, but never heard of Shooto being worked.

                            Furthermore, I think Frank Shamrock had a significant impact on the way people trained for MMA in the US in the late 90's/early 00's. See also, Bas Rutten, Matt Hume, Erik Paulson, Maurice Smith, the Lion's Den, etc.

                            Coleman and Kerr did prove that wrestling+steroids=winning at HW, but that didn't work so well for the smaller weightclasses without decent knowledge of submissions.

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                              #15
                              Yeah, I can't say conclusively about any Shooto matches being worked, I just heard rumors with no proof. As far as I can tell it's raw speculation, but based on the Pro Wrestling background I would imagine that works were not uncommon in the very early days of the sport it nothing else. Even the UFC had a couple of works in its early shows.

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