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    #16
    Originally posted by D Dempsey
    To elaborate on this further I'm not sure it would be worth you time to find it. Matt trained in some of it while he was in Russia and didn't like it that much and after showing me some Samoz I could see why. It didn't really make sense from a mechanical stand point and I believe that Kadochnikov was probably the first person to make any sense of it.
    He was the only one screwed up in the head enough to make sense of it.

    Sorry I just got done slugging through the only two books he actually wrote... and hearing an author thank God for himself as if his birth were a separate act of Grace is just a little much.

    From a historical perspective it is interesting. Equally so and just as valuable is the Manual on Sambo entitled well CAMbO or Sambo by Oschepkov, which contains a detailed training regimine as well as full sections on Combat Sambo and Samoz, detailing technique differences and such. Unfortunately it is only in Russian, and no I don't plan to translate it anytime soon I have my hands full right now, pitching a MA to a government, finishing a video and finishing a couple of translations I have been working for about two years.

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      #17
      Did you get a sense of the working relationship (if any) between Oschepkov and Spiridonov?
      Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.

      Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by DdlR
        I've taken a few classes in the Ryabko style and IMO the intuitive approach works fine if the participant has an open mind and considerable prior experience in other styles. It's a good way to practice thinking, reacting and moving "outside the box". I think that it would take longer to develop real skill using this method if the participant didn't have a solid prior MA background.
        I'd second that. In fact, I often compare Systema to a post graduate studies program, which can make already good people with a credible MA-background much better - but can be next to useless in terms of real world applyability for people without a solid background.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by DdlR
          Did you get a sense of the working relationship (if any) between Oschepkov and Spiridonov?
          Yes they did work together to create Sambo. I wrote up a brief sketch here:
          http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...ighlight=Samoz

          Comment


            #20
            That's a great post, pretty much confirming what I'd surmised about RMA history from the paltry sources available in English. I'm fascinated by what was going on at Dinamo.
            Check out the Bullshido.net Western Martial Arts Forum for all things Western, martial and arty.

            Bartitsu: the Gentlemanly Art of Self Defence (est. 1899)

            Comment


              #21
              Even though a lot of us agree that Ryabko/Vasiliev systema seems to work well for people who have a previous background and an open mind. I have to say, after being there for over 3 years, i have seen some individuals start from scratch there and become quite proficient.

              More specifically, the set of twins that train there, 3 times a week, every week. They've been at it for just over 2 years now and I'll have to say that I have my hands full when I spar with them now. (grappling specifically is a different story tho)

              Granted, this is not the norm as these twins are barely past 20 years old, and have all the time in the world to keep training. But for me, i get to see 2 people start with nothing but dedication and become quite proficient in self defense.

              I will attempt to get some 'lively' footage next time with the twins in it if anyone cares to see what their 2 years have gotten them

              Comment


                #22
                ONly if there cute chicks.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Realize, please, that I have been doing RMA for maybe four months, and girevoy (ketlebells) for about two years. Melk and Hank are far more knowledgeable on RMA than I am.

                  That being said, it's quite difficult to find any Kadochnikov-based schools of RMA stateside, and Ryabko systema schools are also quite rare.

                  The primary difference is that Kadochnikov systema teaches specific technique much like Asian MA. It is all scientifically sound and highly effective. Based on posts made by melk and others, Kadochnikov systema is highly politicized, and practitioners tend to bicker amonst themselves.

                  Ryabko systema is a series of drills that teach you to make up your own and is fairly unique in it's pedagogy. The teaching style of Ryabko's system is what attracted me in the first place, as well as the informal atmosphere.

                  Sambo and other Russian military martial arts I know virtually nothing about; a situation I seek to remedy shortly.

                  I would respectfully recommend that if you have no experience in MA that you try a sport focus combat art such as Thai Boxing or BJJ fist, at least until you understand the basics of hitting and technique. I find that n00bs have a hell of a steep learning curve with Ryabko Systema and that until you're familiar with being pushed to a physical extreme, much of what is taught won't make much sense.
                  Originally posted by Cullion
                  You sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth-loon out of Dr. Strangelove.
                  Sometimes, we put Ricin in the Cocaine. :ninja7:

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by SFGOON
                    Realize, please, that I have been doing RMA for maybe four months, and girevoy (ketlebells) for about two years. Melk and Hank are far more knowledgeable on RMA than I am.

                    That being said, it's quite difficult to find any Kadochnikov-based schools of RMA stateside, and Ryabko systema schools are also quite rare.

                    The primary difference is that Kadochnikov systema teaches specific technique much like Asian MA. It is all scientifically sound and highly effective. Based on posts made by melk and others, Kadochnikov systema is highly politicized, and practitioners tend to bicker amonst themselves.

                    Ryabko systema is a series of drills that teach you to make up your own and is fairly unique in it's pedagogy. The teaching style of Ryabko's system is what attracted me in the first place, as well as the informal atmosphere.

                    Sambo and other Russian military martial arts I know virtually nothing about; a situation I seek to remedy shortly.

                    I would respectfully recommend that if you have no experience in MA that you try a sport focus combat art such as Thai Boxing or BJJ fist, at least until you understand the basics of hitting and technique. I find that n00bs have a hell of a steep learning curve with Ryabko Systema and that until you're familiar with being pushed to a physical extreme, much of what is taught won't make much sense.
                    I agree to the above with couple of caveats. First in Kadoch Systema there is still the absence of techique, however technics are given to demonstrate principles(to pass the tests of Level 3 and up you have to be pretty inventive).

                    Secon RMA in general is highly politicized. I love RMAs for what they are and because of the large number of Russians I know but quite honestly it seems that in the US if you are anybody(primary instructors mostly excluded, at least recently) in any RMA you have nothing better to when not training then to flame each other on your forums or other public forums. ROSS flamed Kadoch and Systema, Systema Flames Kadoch(though while Matt Powell was running K-Sys in the US the Systema instructors tried to halt this) and ROSS, Kadoch(after Matty left and it was other people representing the system) flamed Systema and what was left of ROSS.

                    If you ask me RMA in general has only suffered from it, to the point where RMA is generally a joke in the US. Don't get me wrong there are some good Systema instructors, one good ROSS instructor(Scott Fable) and one current Kadoch instructor(a guy named Robert for whom I only have an email address). When in all actuality these systems had a lot to offer both the sporting world and the fighting world.

                    SF btw I haven't forgotten you, I am almost done translating Special Army Training book of Kadochnikov and Victor and will get you a copy as soon as I am done. My wife and I just had our first kid, so some things were put on the back burner for a while.

                    PS what's your take on the Systema view of Kettlebells(i.e. throw them in the trash?)

                    Comment


                      #25
                      With all of these knowledgable RMA people in this category, I cannot help but ask "please help make me a believer".

                      Every video that I've seen of Systema suggests that it is complete bullshido. I know there is a thread kicking around somewhere on the forums of Phrost purchasing several Systema videos and working through the concepts with a whole class of at least intermediate students. The results were mixed, but primarily there was very little worthwhile subject matter.

                      In the multitude of videos footage that I've seen, there is never any resistance used. Things are never done more then slow motion. Some knife defense that I've seen, mostly on the Vasiliev side... looks as though attempting it would result in getting severely hurt and or killed. Most of the h2h work that is done usually centers around some sort of lurching clumsy slow grab and the instructor literally flicking the person in the shoulder and they go crumpling to the ground. The training just seems to lack realism.

                      Ryabko, again from what I've seen and heard has some pretty mystical claims... and it just seems like someone training in a military MA would stick more to biomechanics and scientific results.

                      I even attended a Systema class out here. SFGOON should know the one.. it was with Brian King at Systema Northwest up in Bellevue. Brian and his students were great guys... they gave me a bit of a hard time since I was training for MMA. A lot of the "that stuff won't help you out on the street".. but nothing that wasn't friendly. I enjoyed the class, it was a good time. But it seemed like it was more of an exploration in senses then self defense. I'm by no means trying to judge Systema after one class.. not even close. But these are my impressions from countless forum topics, video searches, reading, etc. And the fact that I'm not exactly new to MA's.

                      Here are some of the videos that have come up during research. Maybe someone here can give me some website links, and post videos that can show Systema in a better light.

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1tqnbDFnY

                      i searched the above video up after reading earlier responses in this thread. it seemed like this guy was "the source" for proper systema.

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH5KJxgSk-Q

                      this video looks staged. the punches to the stomach as a counter for a front kick.. sure, those look solid.. but the middle of the video.. kicking him lightly in the leg or hitting his shoulders seems to produce a very "over acted" crumpling effect.

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-fHZxX3sag

                      assuming a knife attacker winds up on the ground, these defenses actually look quite applicable. heavy use of his boot and knee to restrict range of motion.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by melk
                        PS what's your take on the Systema view of Kettlebells(i.e. throw them in the trash?)
                        I don't think there's any disdain for KBs in Ryabko's systema. I think the split is with Pavel Tsatsouline's strength breathing techniques, which fly in the face of Ryabko's recommendations. My personal take is that both are valuable in different contexts, with Tsatsouline's techniques seeing limited value outside of hardcore power lifting.

                        Kettlebells themselves are awesome training tool which, in my opinion, do a lot to reinforce the four principles of systema; relaxation, correct posture, constant movement, an easy breathing. I don't understand why all systema practitioners don't use kettlebells regularly. I also don't understand why Tsatsouline and Vasiliev don't collaborate on some instructional materials - the potential to cross sell is awesome and the two camps would get along splendidly. I know for a fact they're friends.
                        Originally posted by Cullion
                        You sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth-loon out of Dr. Strangelove.
                        Sometimes, we put Ricin in the Cocaine. :ninja7:

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Dinosaur AMP
                          I even attended a Systema class out here. SFGOON should know the one.. it was with Brian King at Systema Northwest up in Bellevue.

                          Yup, that's my school, and Brian King is one of my coaches.

                          Systema is very different in it's teaching techniques. There is a tendency to tear the ass out of a single topic in a class, which will either be brutally rigorous or totally focused on relaxation and the senses. You attended the latter it would seem, and they try my patience as well.

                          The first video looks like K-sys, and I'm not qualified to comment upon it.

                          The one with the gentleman "crumpling" I can vouch for. Vladimir can generate an awesome amount of force in those short strikes. I don't know this from him firsthand, but from instructors trained by him, one of whom did something similar to me a few days ago. Simply put, it fucking hurts.

                          I have a personal favorite I'd like you to look at from youtube:

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClQcclNy13I

                          The takedowns are achieved by grabbing a hunk of skin, and twisting, then pulling. I hate those classes with a brutal passion and come home looking like a battered German Hausfrau.

                          Some K-sys/Soviet disinformation. Pay attention to the guys in fatigues, ignore the old man in the suit: The scene I want you to pay attention to starts at about minute 1:00http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuq50cDfrTs
                          Last edited by SFGOON; 11/29/2007 7:23pm, .
                          Originally posted by Cullion
                          You sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth-loon out of Dr. Strangelove.
                          Sometimes, we put Ricin in the Cocaine. :ninja7:

                          Comment


                            #28
                            If you are looking for someone to defend Systema I am not your guy. While I have respect for most of the primary instructors, I go a different way. Some video clips of my thing are here
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TxesdLInNg
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlj2cTJztN8

                            And these are where I and Pramek Came from
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqYS8kjV9fM
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL3vvgXViUc
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG8wR2htaGQ
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ4ml9SikDo

                            In the PraMek video clips you will see some resistance, bear in mind both clips are taken as highlights from much longer vids. The idea typically is to demonstrate the principles and possibilities with co-operation, do it again with non-compliance(like disarming a loaded air-soft pistol) than practice in the same order.

                            In the Kadoch clips and vids you typically don't see resistance that often, and again it is becuase you are seeing only brief glimpses of longer semmys.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by SFGOON
                              I don't think there's any disdain for KBs in Ryabko's systema. I think the split is with Pavel Tsatsouline's strength breathing techniques, which fly in the face of Ryabko's recommendations. My personal take is that both are valuable in different contexts, with Tsatsouline's techniques seeing limited value outside of hardcore power lifting.

                              Kettlebells themselves are awesome training tool which, in my opinion, do a lot to reinforce the four principles of systema; relaxation, correct posture, constant movement, an easy breathing. I don't understand why all systema practitioners don't use kettlebells regularly. I also don't understand why Tsatsouline and Vasiliev don't collaborate on some instructional materials - the potential to cross sell is awesome and the two camps would get along splendidly. I know for a fact they're friends.
                              My guess would be this is becuase of Ryabko's take on them. You can ask around the RKC world, a couple of RKC certified instructors were there two summers ago when Ryabko said they were bad for the back, unnecessary and should be thrown away.

                              Personally I agree with you, but while Vlad may run independant of Ryabko on some things, my guess is that he can't go to far.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by SFGOON
                                Yup, that's my school, and Brian King is one of my coaches.

                                Systema is very different in it's teaching techniques. There is a tendency to tear the ass out of a single topic in a class, which will either be brutally rigorous or totally focused on relaxation and the senses. You attended the latter it would seem, and they try my patience as well.

                                The first video looks like K-sys, and I'm not qualified to comment upon it.

                                The one with the gentleman "crumpling" I can vouch for. Vladimir can generate an awesome amount of force in those short strikes. I don't know this from him firsthand, but from instructors trained by him, one of whom did something similar to me a few days ago. Simply put, it fucking hurts.

                                I have a personal favorite I'd like you to look at from youtube:

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClQcclNy13I

                                The takedowns are achieved by grabbing a hunk of skin, and twisting, then pulling. I hate those classes with a brutal passion and come home looking like a battered German Hausfrau.

                                Some K-sys/Soviet disinformation. Pay attention to the guys in fatigues, ignore the old man in the suit: The scene I want you to pay attention to starts at about minute 1:00http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uuq50cDfrTs
                                The first Vid you poste is pure ROSS. The person doing the fighting is Belorussian Spets, Alexey Kistin.

                                The second vid is a compilation that TSR actually put on the begining of Vlads old tapes which is cobbled together Kadoch(the guy in the suit) and ROSS footage. Actually none of it was filmed until after the fall of the Soviet Union and in its proper context it all makes a lot of sense... you are just missing the context. I have the ROSS vids all of this come from floating around somewhere... the Kadoch vids not so much, but it was filmed at an Expo festival put on by AI Retuinskih, the basic idea was that people were showing off and doing a lot of flash for national pride.

                                -------
                                Edit: It was the 1991 Lenningrad Festival Convention of Representitives of Russian Martial Arts. Featured were the Kadochnikov System Krasnodar Style, Kadochnikov System Retuinskih Style(it would still be a couple of years before they completely split), Buza, Skobar, Retuinskih Renovations of Traditional RMA's, Tverian Wall fighting as well as TKD, and Judo.
                                Last edited by melk; 11/29/2007 7:49pm, .

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